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| Aboriginal European Y-chromsome lineages | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 8 2009, 05:56 AM (311 Views) | |
| ren | Sep 8 2009, 05:56 AM Post #1 |
Yoda
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Ok， if R entered Europe in the Neolithic， and IJ expanded around/after the glacial maximum at 20K， then what are the truly indigenous equivalents of the 40K archeological evidence for Moderns in Europe？ It must be F*， IJK， and K*， and perhaps even NOP， DE， C*， CF？ Anyone with some numbers？ I remember seeing that there is some F* found。 |
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| Ibra | Sep 9 2009, 06:55 PM Post #2 |
Global Mod
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Certainly not CF/DE or R1b1b2/I1/R1a1a. CF and DE are too old (>70 kyr) and seems to have split by the time Eurasians colonized the world. R1b1b2/I1/R1a1a are too young (<5kyr) and are the result of Neolithic/Chalcolithic population growth in different parts of Europe. R1b1b2/I1/R1a1a are virtual twigs on the Y chromosome tree that have members in great numbers because of cultures like the Beaker, Unetice and Yamna (Indo European). It’s likely that most of the length of the R or IJ tree have had a Paleolithic/Mesolithic existence while the overrepresented twigs we see today are a result of agriculture. Population independent methods such as SNP counting can allow us to construct the totality of the tree where the variance cannot. From that I can see that R and IJ are ~40 and anything upstream of that excluding CF and DE are candidates for indigenous European y chromosomes. I think it was recently revealed that U/U5 are good contender for indigenous European mtDNA. U (54 kyr) developed into U5 (36 kyr) in Europe and since European markers are usually a subset of Middle Easter markers, I think IJ may be the best possible candidate.
Edited by Ibra, Sep 9 2009, 08:00 PM.
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| black man | Sep 9 2009, 09:14 PM Post #3 |
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Liaison
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In studies they reported a Sardinian man in hg C (forgot the paper, see my post in the first post of the thread I'll link to) and a Russian man in paragroup "BR" (Derenko 2005: "Contrasting patterns of Y-chromosome variation in South Siberian populations from Baikal and Altai-Sayan regions"): http://s6.zetaboards.com/man/topic/528734/1/ |
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| ren | Sep 10 2009, 06:08 AM Post #4 |
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Yoda
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I don't see see R*,R1b* in Europe though, so R's presence in Europe seems to be post-Neolithic. And where is the IJ(xI,J) inＥｕｒｏｐｅ？ Ｉ ａｎｄ Ｊ ａｒｅ ｂｏｔｈ ｔｏｏ ｙｏｕｎｇ ａｌｓｏ ｔｏ ｆｉｔ ｔｈｅ ４０，０００ＢＰ ｍａｒｋ． Ｔｈａｔ＇ｓ ｔｈｅ ｍｙｓｔｅｒｙ． |
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| Ibra | Sep 10 2009, 09:52 PM Post #5 |
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Global Mod
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Give me some time, I’ll have to check the branches of I and R too see how old they are. What derivative of R and what time period do you propose for the entry into Europe to be post-Neolithic? |
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| Ibra | Sep 11 2009, 05:44 AM Post #6 |
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Global Mod
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 Generated is a simplified tree of R and I using the data gathered form 23&me. People at DNA Forums did most of the work but I've included virtual nodes to the trees in order to bring it to present time, otherwise a biased estimate of R1b1b2 and I2 will yield a MCRA of 0 kyr. F=57 kyr implies that K = 52 kyr which is only 4kyr (migration purposes) to the earliest evidence of moderns in Europe and Australia so I will use F= 57kyr as the scale factor. HG-R R1b1b2 = 57*(4/50) = 4.56 kyr R1b1b= 57*(14/50) = 15.95 kyr R1b1 = 57*(17/50) = 19.38 kyr R1 = 57*(22/50) = 25.48 kyr R= 57*(30/50) = 34.20 kyr P = 57*(37/50) = 42.10 kyr K = 57*(46/50) = 52.44 kyr F= 57* (50/50) = 57.00 kyr HG-I I1 = 57*(3/43) = 3.97 kyr I = 57*(21/43) = 27.83 kyr IJ = 57*(36/43) = 47.72 kyr F = 57*(43/43) = 57 kyr So it looks like P and IJ are good candidates for the 40K archeological evidence for moderns in Europe, provided that F is in the right time frame. Edited by Ibra, Sep 11 2009, 09:24 AM.
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| ren | Sep 11 2009, 10:41 AM Post #7 |
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Yoda
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Your estimates give older ages to the estimates popular these days, such as Karafet's. But not even if we go by your estimates, not even R1b1b is found in Europe, if I understand the situation correctly. All we have is the Neolithic-Bronze Age downstream R1b1b2. As for IJ, if it has been in Europe for 40K, then I would expect IJ lineages that are not I or J all over the place. IJ(xI,J) hasn't been found, as far as I know. I think IJ is older than R in Europe, but it still doesn't cover the first 20k. This is why I brought the subject up.
These are just individual cases that canbe explained by some travelling Mongolian or African stud. I'm looking for something more substantial. The European puzzle has been bothering me for a while now. Edited by ren, Sep 11 2009, 10:43 AM.
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| Ibra | Sep 12 2009, 01:10 AM Post #8 |
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Global Mod
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Definitely, there are 2 reasons for that: 1. Kafafet et al. Y-tree terminates at I1 and R1b1b2 MCRA so the age estimate of I1 and R1b1b2 would imply that they are both 0 kyr, but we know that I1 and R1b1b2 are about 4.5 kyr and 5 kyr respectively. To handle this discrepancy I added 3 (I) and 4 (R1b1b2) nodes after I and 1b1b2 which extend the tree to present. This has the effect of upping the MCRA of all haplogroups involved and improving the accuracy of haplogroup ages closer to the present. 2. Kafafet et al. is long and the branches runs from CT (ancestor of CF and DE) to either I1 or R1b1b2 so they have to scale every haplogroup to the age of CT that they assumed to be 70kyr which is less certain and probably on the lower end if you take L3 into consideration. The data from DNA forums and 23andme begins the tree from something more concrete like HG-F which one can assume to be close in age to mtDNA M and N. My date scaled to F = 57kyr is roughly equivalent to Kafafet tree scaled to CT =80 kyr.
There are 57 R1b1 in the “Kerchner's R1b and Subclades YDNA Haplogroup Project” which is about 2,7% of all R1b. Additionaly a good proportion of the R1b types in Africa are R1b1 which may point to a migration of R1b1 from Europe to africa. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx
What about the idea of IJ going completely extinct and being replaced by I? Another thing is that IJ might have a presence in the Near East compared to Europe or that not enough studies are testing for IJ.
Edited by Ibra, Sep 12 2009, 06:55 AM.
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| JCA | Sep 12 2009, 01:34 AM Post #9 |
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Advanced Member
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The haplogroup C Sardinian might be the one reported by Ornella Semino, Giuseppe Passarino, Peter J. Oefner et al., "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective," Science Vol. 290 (10 Nov 2000): Eu6 (RPS4-T) [=C-RPS4Y] Sardinian 1/77 = 1.3% Greek 1/76 = 1.3% Lebanese 1/31 = 3.2% More data of possible interest from the same study: Eu1 (M13-C) [=A3b2-M13] Sardinian 1/77 = 1.3% Eu3 (YAP+, 4064-A) [=E-SRY4064(xE1b1b1-M35)] Calabrian 1/37 = 2.7% Albanian 1/51 = 2.0% Greek 1/76 = 1.3% Turkish 1/30 = 3.3% Syrian 2/20 = 10.0% As for so-called BR*(xC, DE, F) individuals in Russia, I vaguely recall encountering a report of one in a sample of Yukaghir or some other indigenous Siberian population in addition to several other Slavic Russian individuals. However, I think I have not had access to the relevant publication for about two years now. |
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| black man | Sep 12 2009, 08:56 AM Post #10 |
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Liaison
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Yes, that's the study. Furthermore, Capelli et al. ("Population Structure in the Mediterranean Basin: A Y Chromosome Perspective", 2005) reported 1/70 individuals (1,4% of their NW Sicilian sample) in hg C. These are the haplotypes of M216+, M217- men from Anatolia (2/253) according to Cinnioglu et al. ("Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia" 2004): DYS19, DYS388, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS389I(CD), DYS389II(AB), DYS439, DYSA7.2 15, 13, 25, 11, 11, 13, 14, 16, 11, 11 15, 13, 24, 10, 11, 13, 13, 16, 12, 9
That could have been "The Diversity of Y-Chromosome Lineages in Indigenous Population of South Siberia" (2006) by Derenko et al. However, in this case they seemed to have accidentally ended up in "BR". The frequency is too high (2,7% of 414 in Russians). In the paper "Contrasting patterns of Y-chromosome variation in South Siberian populations from Baikal and Altai-Sayan regions" it's the same sample sizes (414 Russians, 113 Tuvans) but less surprising frequencies (0,2%, i.e. one person, and 0%). But in the latter case, as far as I remember, Denis contacted a researcher, and it was confirmed that the above mentioned man was outside of DE and CF. In any case, I don't know enough about African haplogroups to be able to tell much about who outside of CF could belong to a non-African haplogroup. |
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| ren | Sep 12 2009, 10:43 AM Post #11 |
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Yoda
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Good find. Although I'm more looking for something unique to Europe if R has been there for 40 or 30K, such as finding R3 in 10 of Irishmen. R1b1 could be explained as recent dissemination from SW Asia, if it exists there along with other basal R1b types. As for IJ(xI, J) going extinct, we're back to the original question then, which solves nothing. I've found IJ in Karafet's sample: sample 397, 308, 399, 400, 401, 403, 404. Edited by ren, Sep 12 2009, 11:19 PM.
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| JCA | Sep 17 2009, 06:27 AM Post #12 |
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Advanced Member
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A. M. López-Parra, L. Gusmão, L. Tavares et al., "In search of the Pre- and Post-Neolithic Genetic Substrates in Iberia: Evidence from Y-Chromosome in Pyrenean Populations," Annals of Human Genetics (2009) 73,42–53. CT-M168(xDE-YAP, F-M213) Jacetania 0/31 Valle de Arán 0/25 Cerdaña 1/37 = 2.7% Alto Urgel 1/34 = 2.9% Cinco Villas 0/42 |
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| ren | Sep 17 2009, 07:16 AM Post #13 |
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Yoda
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Nice. Bet the Basque myth of being aborigines has something to do with it. Another place they shuld search is NW Europe and Artic Europe. |
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| Ibra | Sep 26 2009, 06:46 AM Post #14 |
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Global Mod
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Ancient Eurasian DNA It has become incredibly apparent that at least U5 and U4 are aboriginal European mtDNA; most of the rest may have arrived via the Near East. Edited by Ibra, Sep 26 2009, 06:49 AM.
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| manju | Sep 26 2009, 11:48 AM Post #15 |
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doubter
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May not be relevant. But I observed that R1a1 is generally associated with, During Mesolithic age K1b, U5b, U2e, U5a1, T2, U During Iron age: I4, G2a, C, F1b, H or U, H5a, D Isn't that strange for regions with predominant mtDNA H? Is there any explanations? |
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