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"The End of the Altaic Controversy"? No!
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Topic Started: Jul 21 2007, 03:08 PM (296 Views)
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ren
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Jul 21 2007, 03:08 PM
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I have just gotten and read some of Vovin's thorough, 48-page long detailed critique of Starostin's "Altaic" etymological dictionary, and it is damning, especially coming from Vovin, a passionate believer in Altaic but who has in the very recent years changed his mind based on his examination of the evidence.
The "Altaic" family cannot be proven at the point, while there is still a chance that some of the languages may be related.
The most tenuous branch, Japonic, is most likely not related at all, with at best some substratum or loans.
Therefore, I shall remove Japonic from the Altaic section immediately.
I was pleased a while back to find out that Altaic was very well alive, as it sentimentally grouped a bunch of cultures I was personally fond of (based on visiting), but alas the honeymoon/fantasy is over.
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It has already begun.
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ren
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Mar 30 2009, 05:43 AM
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http://starling.rinet.ru/Texts/compmeth.pdf
Starostin's team have come with a rebuttal. Haven't read in detail but some of it are good points:
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Unfortunately, no reference is given, so it is hard to establish the origin of the proposed etymology. Nevertheless, unless AV’s idea is that both forms were concocted already on Korean territory from two Sino-Ko- rean morphemes (not very likely), we would have to presume that both of these compounds can easily be found in Middle Chinese, thus corrobora- ting the «loanword» solution. And the first of these, 惡水 (MC *ʔâk-śwí), really exists — but its meaning, however, is usually defined as ‛dirty (stagnant) water’ [HDC VII: 55], with no direct connections to ‛rain’, let alone ‛heavy rain’. The second one, to use AV’s own terminology, is a ‛ghost word’: no such compound is ever attested in Chinese texts or mo- dern spoken language (although we do sometimes have it as a verb+object idiom: MC ʔek śwí ‛to suppress the water(s)’, said, e. g., of Yu, subduer of the Great Flood). Even if we suppose that such a compound may have existed, though (but why should we?), it is hard to believe that it was used to designate any kind of falling water, since in Chinese the word 水 shuǐ (MC śwí), throughout all the attested epochs, has always designated flowing rather than falling water. If the Korean words meant anything like ‛flood, inundation’, the borrowing suggestion would be more plausible. As it is, there is nothing «transparent» about these «loans», and external explanation is at the least equally reasonable, if not more so.
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It has already begun.
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JCA
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Mar 30 2009, 04:05 PM
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It looks like they have been having an argument over the etymology of the Korean word ¾ï¼ö eoksu, which also has a variant (and possibly somewhat "diminutive" by reason of Korean vocalic symbolism, which I will not bother to explain here) form ¾Ç¼ö aksu: "a pouring/heavy/torrential/drenching rain, a downpour, a cloudburst." The /su/ in eoksu and aksu occasionally has been written with the Chinese character â© (Mandarin shuĭ "water"), and /su/ is, in fact, the regular Sino-Korean reading of this character.
However, I have always thought that Korean eoksu, aksu ("torrential rain, rainstorm") vaguely resembles Manchu akjan ("thunder") and Ainu apto, ahto ("rain; storm").
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ren
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Mar 31 2009, 09:55 AM
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Tell me, my Japanese linguistics expert, what do you make of their critique of Vovin's critique of them regarding "katana":
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PJ *kàtànà ‛sword, knife’ is derived in EDAL (p. 53) from PA *gằŕ[à] ‛sharp edge’; AV rejects the derivation in favour of an internal etymology that analyzes the word as kata- ‛one’ + -na ‛blade’, reasonably pointing out that the word normally refers to a single-bladed sword (as opposed to OJ turugî ‛double-edged sword’) already in OJ. This etymology, which he calls «quite transparent» in his review, did not, however, seem all that transparent to him a decade earlier, when he wrote: «there is not enough evidence for hypothetical PJ *na ‛blade’, reconstructed on the basis of -na in katana ‛small sword’, ‛knife’ and kana ‛plane’ by Martin» [VOVIN 993a: 30]. One wonders, of course, what exactly is that extra evidence for PJ *na that came up over the last ten years and made j~êíáå’s etymology so transpar- ent. However, we are not really putting that against AV, since we ourselves believe that such a word is potentially reconstructible (it is at least suggested in several dictionaries, e. g. [JDB: 52]). Yet even taking into account that the internal analysis goes way beyond j~êíáå (the same explanation is given in [JDB: 93]), there is still a major problem with this analysis: in the oldest texts (as well as later ones) the word is never transcribed with the character 片, as is the common case with all similar compounds quoted by AV, such as 片足 kata-asi ‛one foot’, 片側 kata-gawa ‛one side’, etc. Instead, it is always written semantographically as simply 刀 ‛sword’ or 小刀 ‛small sword’, as opposed to tsurugi, written either as 劍 ‛(Chinese) sword’ or 大刀 ‛big sword’. Given this consistent spelling, it can be concluded that (a) already in the OJ period the word kàtànà was not perceived as having anything to do with kata- ‛one’ and (b) the main difference between it and turugî was seen as their respective size — even though sharpness of the edges might have been a criterion as well. As for the ‛one-blade’ etymology, it may have become popular through analogy with the well-attested compound kata- ha ‛single blade(d sword)’, appearing in the language much later and this time faithfully transcribed as 片刃. To this must be added that we really know little about what kind of weapon was designated in OJ by the term kàtànà. Its current and most well- known incarnation — the long curved single-edged samurai sword — is actu- ally quite late (coming into heavy use around the 5th century). Before that, the primary fashion for single-edged swords was the tachi (太刀), but even this is generally thought to have been carried over from China not earlier than the 0th century (around the same time that the famous dictionary Wa- myō ruijushō [倭名類聚抄] was compiled, where the ‘one-bladed’ definition of kàtànà is met for the first time). And yet we already have the term kàtànà attested throughout the Kojiki (古事記, 8th century). Whatever the ultimate solution may be, the kàtànà of these early monuments should hardly be associated with the iconic samurai sword of the 5th century, meaning that AV’s confidence here is slightly anachronistic. In the light of this, we are at peace with the idea that -nà in kàtànà is not a suffix, but really an old word meaning ‛blade’, although it had al- ready fallen out of independent usage long before the OJ period (and, there- fore, could hardly have been borrowed from Korean — see below). As for what concerns the first part of the compound, an external etymology that links it to PK *kárh ‛sword’ (actually following MARTIN [966: 25], who re- constructs Proto-Korean-Japanese *khal-nal ‛blade of sword’) and then fur- ther with several semantically more distant parallels in Turkic and TM34, seems to us a much better solution than the one advocated traditionally; and if AV’s understanding of «respect for cultural history of languages» (more on that in the «philology» section below) equates it with uncritical acceptance of every instance of lexical analysis found in Japanese diction- aries, we must respectfully disagree.
p. 70 of PDF
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