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| The Korean head | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 1 2007, 10:05 AM (11,650 Views) | |
| black man | Apr 1 2007, 10:05 AM Post #1 |
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Liaison
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Literature: Han, Rhi and Lee 2004: Development of Prototypes of Half-Mask Facepieces Hao et al. 1998: A Study on Anthropometric Measurement of Head and Face of Chinese (Han tribe, Man tribe, Hui tribe, Chaoxian tribe) The Journal of the Kyushu Dental Society, Vol.52, No.1, pp. 54-62 Hu, Kyung-Seok, Koh, Ki-Seok/Jung, Han-Sung/Kang, Min-Kyu/Choi, Byoung-Young/Kim, Hee-Jin: PhysicalAnthropological Characteristics and Sex Determinative Analysis by the Metric Traits of Korean Mandibles journal name: ?, 369 ~ 382, Vol.13, No.4, 2000 Kim et al. 1997: Measurements of the Zygomatic Bones and Morphology of the Zygomaticofacial and Zygomaticotemporal foramina in Korean Koh KS et al. : Anthropological study on the Facial Flatness of Korean from the Historic to the Modern Period Korean J Phys Anthropol. 1999 Dec;12(2):211-221. Koh KS, Shon HJ, Chung RH, Kang HS.: An Anthropometric Study of Flatness of the Korean Crania. Korean J Phys Anthropol. 1997 Jun;10(1):1-11. Koh, Kiseok: Anthropological Characteristics of Korean Crania journal name: ?, 122 ~ 130, Vol.23, No.2, 1999 Kyung-Seok Hu D.D.S., M.S., Ki-Seok Koh Ph.D., Seung-Ho Han M.D., Ph.D., Kyoung-Jin Shin D.D.S., Ph.D., Hee-Jin Kim D.D.S., Ph.D. (2006): Sex Determination Using Nonmetric Characteristics of the Mandible in Koreans Park DK, Lee UY, Lee JH, Choi BY, Koh KS, Kim HJ, Park SJ, Han SH: Non-metric Traits of Korean Skulls Korean J Phys Anthropol. 2001 Jun;14(2):117-126. Korean. more general information at www.sac.or.kr/eng/face/anthro.html |
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| ren | Apr 3 2007, 06:26 PM Post #2 |
Yoda
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It seems that non-metrics relate them more to East Asia's northern neighbors. In that case, Koreans' less robusticity compared to Mongols and Kazakhs may be due to neolithilization or response to warmer temeratures.
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| black man | Apr 3 2007, 09:31 PM Post #3 |
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Obviously, average Koreans have lower metric values than average Mongols. In particular, the head length and breadth are similar to those of Han and Japanese. But on the other hand, relatively high percentages of Koreans are metrically similar to average Mongols concerning e.g. bizygomatic breadth of the face when one takes a look at more detailed statistics (see study mentioned at the bottom of this post). I don't think that it has anything to do with climatic differences between Korea and Mongolia but rather with the establishment of a particular, hybridised average phenotype. Hybridisation theory would also explain why certain soft tissue characteristics common to East Siberians are also often found among southern Koreans but less in Japanese and Han, I think. (Sorry, I did not find any academic support for the latter observation, yet. It is a personal one.) Another question would be whether Korean head has changed shape during time. As for the Japanese head, e.g. Suzuki wrote that it did: according to the data he compared, medieval Japanese were significantly more prognathic and dolichocephalic than present-day Japanese...Now imagine what could have occured after the hypothetic split between "proto-Mongols" and "proto-Koreans", a morphological predecessor for present-day Mongols being traced back to neolithic people of what is now northern Mongolia who were already significantly different from present-day Koreans. Maybe hybridisation, maybe change of social selection criteria concerning attractivity, maybe isolation, maybe change of head shape due to change of nutrition or a combination of several changes. update: check out A Study on Anthropometric Measurement of Head and Face of Chinese by Jin et al. (also more details about the heads of Chinese Koreans) |
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| black man | Apr 7 2007, 09:54 PM Post #4 |
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(Some posts were moved from this thread to http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.php?showtopic=1228 ) |
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| black man | Dec 20 2007, 10:59 PM Post #5 |
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from http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.php?s...dpost&p=3282039
(As for more general information about nasal and morphological facial height measuring, see http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.php?showtopic=1663&hl= ) I collected sources on nasal height (nasion-subnasale, as far as I can judge) data from 42mm on (Semang males) to 63mm (Iranian and Assyrian males). Because female values are usually lower than male values, it's possible that the minimum nose height of at least adult Semang people is even lower than 42mm. As for maximum nasal height of adult humans, Carleton Coon allegedly reported values higher than 70mm. But I don't know how reliable that information is. In any case, values like 42mm and 63mm are already rarely reported in Western studies. So I suggest to consider nasal heights (from nasion to subnasale) of about 52/53mm to be intermediate. Only one of those Korean samples I'm aware of has on average a nasal height of 53mm. The other averaged values are all lower, two of them being below 50mm despite of the fact that these samples consisted of males only. Unfortunately, there is the possibility that some of the Korean nasal data I know about was due to outdated measurement techniques. In the last century there was in fact a measurement technique which led to lower values than one would expect today. But if the data are correct (and representative), at least several different Korean populations are definitely not high-faced on average. Moreover, Korean nasal dimensions are in this case similar to those of Malay, Vietnamese, Miao and Daic samples ("intermediate" nose heights) or even insular Austronesians, South Asians and Africans ("smaller" nose heights). Taking into account that Korean facial heights were apparently reported to be tendentially intermediate, one might conclude that the Korean chin contributes relatively much to the Korean facial height. Something similar could be said about e.g. Inuit noses and facial heights. Those East Asians with the highest noses are, to my knowledge, Sino-Tibetans (especially the "northwestern" ones, i.e., Shanxi Han, Himalayan Khampas, Himalayan "Changpas", Yunnan Han, whose ancestors were probably from Henan, and Qiang). According to the data, their nose heights are similar to those of (mostly IE and partly Semitic) West Asians (about 60mm). The noses of other Sino-Tibetan, Siberian, Kalmyk, Inuit, Sioux and eastern Indonesian samples are a few mms lower (though still high). Korean males follow with 48-53mm together with quite a lot of peoples from all around the world: SE Asian "negritos" tend to have lower noses, subsaharan Africans, Australian aborigines and Papuans broader ones and West Eurasians narrower ones. |
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| ren | Dec 21 2007, 08:32 PM Post #6 |
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Yoda
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It's possible the their relatively developed jaw/chin and narrow noses makes the impression that their mid-facial region is longer. |
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| JCA | Dec 21 2007, 11:03 PM Post #7 |
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That is definitely not what blackman was trying to say! Koreans tend to have short, broad (rather triangular, actually) noses, and their midfacial regions are not long at all. Are you confusing them with Manchus or something? By a "triangular nose," I mean that their noses tend to be relatively narrow at the top (between the eyes) and relatively broad at the bottom (just above the upper lip). In my experience, the typical Korean nose resembles the typical Ainu "pig nose," but Koreans tend to have a flatter glabellar region. This sort of "pig nose" is very common among Southeast Asians and Indians, too. The Yemeni man in that old black-and-white photo posted by Irano_Afghan has the same sort of nose. I don't know where people who don't know Koreans get their stereotypes of them! Here are some typical Koreans:    
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| black man | Dec 22 2007, 01:13 AM Post #8 |
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People get their stereotypes from 20th century anthropological works by people like von Eickstedt and Coon. The latter collected a couple of samples in one or two regions of a continent plus a couple of rumours and wrote that altogether into their possibly still relatively popular works. AFAIK, von Eickstedt only visited southern China, from where he had a Yunnanese Han sample, which he might have used for his definition of a long-faced "Nordsinid" (northern Chinese) type since the ancestors of Yunnanese are partly from Henan. Because von Eickstedt seemed to believe in a correlation between phenoptypes and cultures, I suppose that he concluded that long-faced East Asians would be automatically "warlike" and vice versa. Now, unlike many southern Han local populations, northern Han, Koreans and Japanese happen to be famous for warrior traditions. This might have been the "reason" for which von Eickstedt associated them all with long-faced "Nordsinids". Ironically, von Eickstedt even seems to have acknowledged that e.g. Shandong Han and southern Koreans aren't long-faced on average. In fact, he also associated them with SE Asians. But in those circles which still read von Eickstedt's works there are many people with fascistoid ideological backgrounds who only remember text passages where "warrior races" are artificially constructed by authors of outdated books. That is how I'd explain the strange statements one occasionally finds in the internet. Worth mentioning is also that von Eickstedt emphasised a "Nordsinid" component in northern Koreans. Yet, Shirokogorov, who published his work before von Eickstedt, reported an average facial height of only 117mm for northern Koreans. 117mm are less than the "southern" average facial heights from von Eickstedt's own e.g. Vietnamese samples. A later study of Chinese Koreans confirmed an intermediate average facial height of 120mm, also not far from von Eickstedt's average Vietnamese facial heights. Sure, there is also the large pooled sample of North Koreans from several Japanese researchers which implies relatively high faces. But the according studies were from a time in which the measurement of facial heights by Japanese anthropologists might have depended on even more variable standards than today. Summing up some results of earlier Japanese studies, Kouichi Makiko in the end of the 20th century abstained from mentioning the values in a book because many of them were in her opinion too high. |
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| ren | Dec 22 2007, 05:09 PM Post #9 |
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Yoda
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No, I'm not confusing them with Manchus. The key word is "relatively", and maybe I forgot to say that, but relatively to sub-Saharans and southern Asians at the atleast.
I've known a lot of Korean Americans and seen even more, thousands. I wouldn't call their noses "broad", relative to the world at large, and objectively on average the width might be thinner than Westerns or atleast certain regions of western Eurasia; it's just that the gutted base, nasal sill makes the nose unraised/falttened at the bottom, which might create the impression, along with the lack of defined nasal root at the top, a broadness. The less prominent nose of Koreans compared to Japanese might give the impression that it's broad. The problem is that once we develope a certain formula, we tend to ignore those that contradict the formula while remembering deeply those that confirm it. I myself have experienced this with my impressions of what northern and southern Chinese were, before I got to China, so that the entire thread on southern Chinese phenotypes I made has to be scrapped. But objectively speaking, I can't say the Korean nose is broad, nor does the number say that either I don't think.
I wouldn't say these are typical Koreans, simply because of the fact that Korean presidents are not random people; you'd had to have them in mind before in your midn of what a Korean is. And I wouldn't even call the other ones "broad"... personally. These are Korean (American?) students taken from Indiana U. Korean association website:   other pictures here, http://iuksa.cafe24.com/zeroboard/zboard.php?id=pic  There's tons of photos... all random Korean Americans. Washington University Korean Student Association site: http://students.washington.edu/ksa/photos.htm Stanford site: http://www.stanford.edu/group/KASA/KSA_gallery/index.html And so on... One can get an accurate, random picture of Korean Americans by just checking out these sites, and on average I wouldn't say they have broad noses (strictly talking about the width relative in the world, and not prominence). Plus, the numbers, in this sample atleast, say that Koreans actually have narrower noses than Japanese: 
I have never read any of those guys, except Coon, and I don't recall reading anything on Koreans. My general impression is formed out of knowing and seeing thousands of Korean AMericans first-hand. |
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| JCA | Dec 22 2007, 08:53 PM Post #10 |
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Here are some of ren's so-called "other photos" from the Washington University Korean Student Association website:      The problem with these photos is that you can't be sure that any particular individual is actually a full-blooded Korean. Many of them appear to be Americans of European ancestry or Euro-Asian hybrids. Even the ones who appear "Asian" are not necessarily all Korean. I, for one, have participated in functions of both the Korean Student Assocation and the Japanese Student Association at my university, and I also know many other persons of European ancestry, mixed European and Asian ancestry, or non-Korean or non-Japanese Asian ancestry who participated in the respective groups. As for the individuals in these photos who appear to be full-blooded Asians, about half of them (particularly the females) have the typical short, piggy noses that I was talking about yesterday. This assures me that at least a majority of the participants are of mostly Korean ancestry.  I think ren might be correct that it is not so much a matter of the metrical broadness (width) of the nose, but rather the impression that is created by a short, flattish nose on a broad face. The average Korean person's nose might be metrically "narrower" than the average Japanese person's nose, but the overall appearance of the average Korean person's nose is much more piggy. Maybe "short, small, and flat" is a better description than "broad" in this case. |
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| black man | Dec 22 2007, 09:08 PM Post #11 |
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Well, as far as I remember, you communicated with "Agrippa" via PM at dodona. That's why I mentioned it above. Also, JCA seemed to have encountered the statement already before. But of course, there are many ways how one can get the impression that the Korean middle face would be high (high eyebrows, narrow nose, generally big face...). Concerning your hint (Korean Americans), I just coincidentally found a link: http://www.femininebeauty.info/aesthetics.3.htm See table 1, "n-sn" (nasal height: 51,8mm vs 50,6mm) and "sn-gn" (lower facial height: 66,8mm vs 64,3mm). From these data (published in 2004) one can relatively safely conclude that Korean American women are on average more high-faced than Euro-American women. (Afro-American women are more low-faced than Euro-Americans according to table 2 on that page linked to above.) Yet, other (non-Russian, non-Japanese) sources reported female nasal heights from 55 to 59mm (especially Farkas in 2005). So the latter is what I'd consider to be really high noses. So, yes, you're right in the American context but I'm not sure as for the world-wide context. When we assume that the nasal sexual dimorphism of Korean Americans can be equated with that of Turkish (I'll take the data from Arslan et al. 2007* for the comparison), we might add about 3,5mm to the Korean American female nose in order to get the height of the Korean American male one. Then the latter would be moderately high (about 55mm) and comparable to e.g. SE Siberian (Nivkh), Indonesian (Minangkabau, Sumbanese and Timorese) and Cantonese nasal heights. ---------------- * (Btw, Arslan et al. reported 46mm as the minimum nasal height and 62mm as the maximum nasal height for the females in their sample and 48mm/72mm for the males.) |
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| ren | Dec 22 2007, 09:52 PM Post #12 |
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Yoda
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No, these are not my "so called 'other photos'" but ones you've picked out, which to me seems somehow trying to make the point that fit your argument, whereas I actually just picked the first photos I saw with a lot of frontal faces. You could've posted a lot of other, more productive photos.
Well, I'm not going to argue over whether they are Euro-Asian hybrids. 99% of them look just like typical Korean Americans.
Well, where is this, in the US or Japan? And it appears to me you haven't been to a university with a lot of Koreans or live in a region with a lot of them. Perhaps your first impressions are of a limited number of Korean, say South Korean graduate students who had broad noses, and the impression stuck. My point is that you seem to be insisting on something, finding excuses or deliberately making a case, without just letting the numbers and pics speak for themselves.
Post some pics. I want to get an idea of what you think is piggish, short noses. that I might agree on, but the average Korean nose, objectively speaking, is not wide relative to the world at large. |
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| ren | Dec 22 2007, 10:00 PM Post #13 |
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Yoda
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Well, surely you didn't assume I was basing my opinions on Koreans based on such fellows as von Eickstedt? I'll just take it as your need to vent on European race science vis-a-vis Koreans. Otherwise, it seems like a low blow at me. 
Yeah, but relatively and practically speaking, that would make Korean mid-facial region rather high/long, which gets back to the original point about whether Korean noses are lepto or broad/short on average.
I'm not convinced regarding Cantonese nasal heights. The average Catonese from my impression appear to have shorter, broader noses, but that's another topic, and perhaps you can bring in relevant information. |
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| ren | Dec 22 2007, 10:38 PM Post #14 |
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Yoda
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Actually, I was wondering, only if you had the desire, to collect the numbers on relating to Korean facial features, but only if you have the desire. Don't even feel this is a request. And if you do, you can do it a small amount at a time. I'm curious about how my stereotypes of Koreans fit the numbers, noting that the numbers themselves vary, depending on method. --- I've found a study with the averaged faces of Thais, Sino Thai, and Korean females, based on 50 individuals each: http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.php?showtopic=1738 It should be interesting. Decide for yourselves. |
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| black man | Dec 22 2007, 11:56 PM Post #15 |
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Having not yet collected enough data from recent studies, I today prefer reference to ranges of averages rather than average values alone. Sometimes these ranges of averages reach into the clearly high-faced (high-nosed) part of the scale, sometimes not. As for Koreans, the range of averages is from 49 to 52mm (nasal heights of women according to Kim 2003 and Choe 2004), from 48 to 53mm (nasal heights of men according to Ueda 1942/Kohama 1940 and several authors whose results were apparently pooled in 1934), from 110 to 119mm (morphol. facial heights of women according to Kim 2003 and Choe 2004) and from 117 to 124mm (morphol. facial heights of women according to Shirokogorov 1923 and several authors whose results were apparently pooled in 1934). This would IMO indicate that... - averaged female Korean nasal heights vary from "moderately low" to "intermediate". - averaged male Korean nasal heights vary from "moderately low" to "moderately high". - averaged female Korean morph. facial heights vary from definitely low to intermediate. - averaged male Korean morph. facial heights vary from moderately low to moderately high. When we ignore the old samples, only the intermediate averages for both sexes and low averages for women remain. Further, there is a recent study by Han et al. (2004) according to which 26 Korean men and 24 Korean women are put into three categories: - "small" dimensions: 46 and 109mm on average. - "medium" dimensions: 50 and 117mm on average. - "large" dimensions: 54 and 125mm on average. Furthermore, they mention who ended up where in the following categorisation... - 98,5-107,5mm (very low-faced): 6 women - 107,5-116,5mm (very low-faced to low-faced): 16 women, 6 men - 116,5-125,5mm (moderately low to moderately large facial height): 2 women, 14 men. - 125,5-134,5mm (large to very large facial height): 6 men. ^ IMO one shouldn't put too much trust in the more recent studies just because they are new. Actually, the studies by Kim et al. and Han et al. were made as a preparation for the design of respirator masks, not for interethnic comparisons of samples representative for (sub)populations. ----------- I'd like to tell more about southern Han anthropometric values but in fact I couldn't get much data so far. So far, I came across high-faced Cantonese, high-faced Hokkienese, very large-faced Singaporean and absolutely narrow-faced Taiwanese averaged samples which made me wonder what was measured. Unfortunately, most authors only measured either northern or southern Han (and almost no Western source mentions central Han data).
Can't access the page. That must be in a subforum where I've no access to. |
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