| Welcome to Quetzalcoatl: anthropology forum. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Asian IEs with an "Altaic" background | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Jan 6 2007, 05:44 AM (1,399 Views) | |
| black man | Jan 6 2007, 05:44 AM Post #1 |
|
Liaison
  ![]](http://209.85.48.16/static/1/pip_r.png)
|
In Asia there are several IE populations which are suspected of having experienced a relatively significant impact of "Altaic" peoples on their cultural and/or genetic make-ups. One of them are the Russians in certain formerly Tungusic-speaking regions of Siberia. The others are Indo-Iranians, in particular the following ones: Moghols (they even spoke a Mongolic language until relatively recently): http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=mhj Aimaqs: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=aiq Hazaras (a medieval y-haplotype also common in Mongolic peoples was detected in some Pakistani Hazara samples): http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=haz There is a list with some tiny ethnic groups (e.g. the Jamshidis) historically probably related to the three latter at http://www.nativeplanet.org/indigenous/eth...data_asia.shtml -------- Ethnographic research on these groups is slowly making progress. Once being perceived as primarily alien ("Mongolian") to their "more pure-bred" IE neighbours, the concerning populations are now more and more viewed as what they more likely are: Indo-Europeans with partly Tungusic and Turkic and/or Mongolic backgrounds. I'll update if there is interest in this topic. |
 |
 
|
| Maju | Jan 6 2007, 12:51 PM Post #2 |
sorgina
|
Well, Hazaras really look "Mongoloid" in aspect, no matter they speak an IE language, really. The real question would be: what is an Indo-European people. Is anyone speaking IE languages Indo-European? That makes Mexicans as IE as Russians (and Hazaras, naturally). If we would adopt a geneticist (racialist) viewpoint, only one people in the World has more than 50% R1a1: the Poles (Altaians are very close though). Definitively Western Euros would be a very bad example of "racial IEs", as much as Mexicans or Hazaras surely. :rolleyes: |
|
Chaos never died, the Empire was never founded. | |
|
|
|
| black man | Jan 6 2007, 10:06 PM Post #3 |
|
Liaison
|
I think that strongly depends on the locations. According to literature, you'll find places where the Hazaras look predominately like West Eurasians. And e.g. when one googles for pictures with "site:www.hazara.com hazara", one receives mostly pictures of people looking like sort of Persians, Mongols or a combination of the features of both. (Btw, Hazara genetic samples were so far all from Pakistan, AFAIK.) Or one can google with e.g. "Bamiyan" (the capital of "Hazarajat") and receive pictures of more gracilised people, maybe a mix of SW Siberians with Tajiks. (Tajiks themselves possibly to ancient South Asian-related influences often don't look very West Eurasian and might thus have contributed to Bamiyan Hazaras' rather non-Western appearance.) So there is, IMO, no rule for how Hazara subpopulations have to look like. On a side note, I must say I unfortunately lack picture series from Moghols and Aimaqs. But literature says that both groups have a predominately "Iranian" phenotype despite of the fact that the Moghols spoke a Mongolic language until recently. |
|
|
|
| black man | Jan 6 2007, 10:21 PM Post #4 |
|
Liaison
|
Bamiyan:    pictures from "www.hazara.com", based in Pakistan: http://www.hazara.com/massacre/june8pictureshow.html Hazaras of Quetta: http://www.hazara.com/center_quetta/help.html |
|
|
|
| Maju | Jan 7 2007, 10:02 AM Post #5 |
|
sorgina
|
I didn't mean that Hazaras always look Mongoloid, just that they often do. The case of Aimaqs seems simmilar:    Some look "eastern" others "western". Some "googled" Hazaras:         Just for the record... |
|
Chaos never died, the Empire was never founded. | |
|
|
|
| black man | Jan 7 2007, 10:21 PM Post #6 |
|
Liaison
|
The males on the photos were labeled "Aimaq Hazara". I don't know whether they call themselves like that. So maybe they're Aimaqs, maybe not. Non-professional researchers often make the situation more complicated than necessary not only because of the labeling. E.g. physical attractivity in non-West Eurasians is sometimes subjectively attributed to "Mediterranean"-like influence (this is e.g. the case as for the Veddas). I could imagine that some authors exaggerated the Western influence on Aimaq and Moghol phenotypes. |
|
|
|
| Snow_Jackal | Sep 8 2007, 01:24 PM Post #7 |
Advanced Member
|
From Coon: FIG. 5 (2 views). An Iranian-speaking native of Russian Turkestan, showing a Dinaricized form of the usual Irano-Afghan type found in Iranian territory.  FIG. 6 (2 views. It is possible but unlikely that these two views represent two separate individuals). A lowland Tajik from Samarkand, racially a Dinaricized Irano-Afghan. The early oasis population was probably of Mediterranean type, the brachycephalizing agent being Alpine, from the Pamirs.  http://www.snpa.nordish.net/racesofeurope.htm http://www.snpa.nordish.net/troeplate43.htm |
|
|
|
| Snow_Jackal | Sep 10 2007, 06:13 PM Post #8 |
|
Advanced Member
|
This guy here is very interresting. This guy is racially cauccasid and of Irano- Afghan type almost purelly. Is just he´s eye that make him look somehow mongoloid. |
|
|
|
| black man | Sep 10 2007, 06:56 PM Post #9 |
|
Liaison
|
I used this picture above to demonstrate that "Altaic" (i.e. Siberian) historical background might not explain the East Eurasian element of admixture in Hazaras. I think that the man on the picture is typical for Bamiyan region in general. Actually, I have dozens of men from Bamiyan on video tapes, who equally appear to have East Eurasian admixture but also from a probably an originally non-"Altaic" source. If you have a "face morph" software or something alike (e.g. at http://morph.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Transformer/ ), you can test how a person with features intermediate between Mongol and Iranian looks... as opposed to a person intermediate between Iranian a different kind of East Eurasian: Mongol:  central East Eurasian:  You'll get tendentially different results. Similarly, mixing between Iranic and different East Eurasian peoples will have different results in real life. Judging from my experience, a central East Eurasian admixture in an Iranic population will be less noticeable to most people than a typical Mongol admixture. |
|
|
|
| Snow_Jackal | Sep 12 2007, 08:56 PM Post #10 |
|
Advanced Member
|
Ye, some mongoloid subraces are generaly more cauccasid looking then others. Which mongoloid subraces in East Asia have closer look to cauccasians?
Thanks a lot for that site Black Man! |
|
|
|
| black man | Sep 13 2007, 12:05 AM Post #11 |
|
Liaison
|
Some "alpinid" West Eurasians (French, Russians) might be within the range of northern Han concerning nasal protrusion (1) and flatness of the eye region. Moderate facial breadth(s) combined with a certain degree of cheek bone protrusion in a small percentage of SW Asians might also be within the range of Sino-Tibetans. Notice that these guys (only subsets of French, Russians and SW Asians) are not perfectly average West Eurasians also according to the biometric standards of their own countries. Moreover, there is parallel development into similar directions, i.e. some Iranic (e.g. Kurdish) samples are on average high-faced and of intermediate facial breadth and are in this sense "similar" to northern Han. But this only concerns the distance between the zygomas and the one between nasion and prosthion, two values among many. But when you take a look at the other biometric values (e.g. nasal depth) of Kurdish and northern Han faces, you can easily distinguish between the two. More difficult that might be as for samples from Xinjiang and Afghanistan, where stronger South Asian influences might have contributed to flatter noses. The most deep-set eyes and broadest foreheads among East Asians are found in SE Asia. But their middle and lower faces are very different from those of average West Eurasians, also from those of "Alpinids". This all mostly concerns only central East Asians and Polynesians (and to a lesser degree SE Asians). In contrast to them, Mongols only have a very restricted phenotypical variation with extreme tendencies in a world-wide comparison. It is thus not at all adequate to use the term "Mongoloids" when referring to East Asians in general.
I think, there are many more links. But I'm not sure whether they really offer free download and use: http://www.google.de/search?num=100&hl=de&...tnG=Suche&meta= ----------- (1) as for the nostril shape, which is thematically comparable, see "Geography of the Nose: A Morphometric Study" by Leslie G. Farkas, John C. Kolar, and Ian R. Munro |
|
|
|
| Snow_Jackal | Sep 13 2007, 10:06 PM Post #12 |
|
Advanced Member
|
What I have noticed is that mongoloids (amerindian included) do generally have quite broad and square jaws, which do not occur as much as in other races. Its almost atypical for them+ those obelique eyes (al thoght some amerindians lack that), togheter with very streight hairs, seems charachtaric for all mongoloid trait.
Thanks, I will chek those to |
|
|
|
| black man | Sep 13 2007, 11:38 PM Post #13 |
|
Liaison
|
Those whom you describe were isolated from the rest of the world for millenia by climatic and geographic barriers. That is why they have features which are also (in this particular combination) rare among their central and southern East Asian genetic relatives. The effect of isolation can also be demonstrated by the lack of DNA haplogroup diversity in certain Siberians and Amerindians. E.g., Amerindians almost always belong to the mtDNA haplogroups A, B, C and D. Central East Asians can belong to the same haplogroups but also to the groups N9, F, M7, M8(xC), M9, M10, M11, M12 and others. In the case of the y-haplogroups Amerindians only belong to the groups C3b and Q. Central East Asians, on the contrary, are found in groups C(xC3b), D, F(xF1,G,H,IJ,K), NO and Q1. Straight hair is not as common in Siberians and Amerindians as often thought. In fact, many have wavy hair, like central and southern East Asians. Of course, this not easy to prove in an age of short hair cuts (for men) and hair-straightening (for women). But if one collects pictures of Amerindians and East Asian men with long hair (pictures of shamans or from old movies of e.g. Jackie Chan), one will soon find out that they are at many locations rather wavy-haired than straight-haired. |
|
|
|
| Maju | Sep 14 2007, 07:22 AM Post #14 |
|
sorgina
|
In fact, I'd say that "oblique eyes" (epicanthic fold) and small rather flat nose, together relative lack of body hair and high cheeks, are the main traits of typical Monogoloids. Square jaw is also found often in Europe, specially in the north and east. Other traits IA mentioned, like straight hair are quite frequent in India and Europe as well. Basically, if you lower their cheeks a bit, expand the nose to the front and remove (even only partially) the eyelid fold in the pics above, you'd get West Eurasians as result (or something looking quite as one). The overall effect of such small changes may be marked to the eye but it's hold in these few traits if I'm right. In fact, you can see some of this effect in some Native Americans with prominent noses and virtually no eyelid fold... even if skin tone and marked cheeks still betray their true origins somewhat, these traits are not always clear enough to make a difference in southern Europe, for instance. |
|
Chaos never died, the Empire was never founded. | |
|
|
|
| Snow_Jackal | Sep 14 2007, 10:13 PM Post #15 |
|
Advanced Member
|
Square jaws do also occuar amoung europeans, but it occuor much more amoung mongoloids. Amerindians look usually as sometimes refered as "busted cauccasids" al thoght without lack of facial hair and body hair, pretty much like africans. Long and prominent noses however seems also to be typical for them to as it is for papuans and middleeasterners. However they are more square faced then both papuans and middleeasterners that are rather long and narrow headed.
|
|
|
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Northwest Eurasian Sprachbund · Next Topic » |
