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| Japanese ethnogenesis | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 2 2005, 07:03 AM (1,074 Views) | |
| black man | Nov 2 2005, 07:03 AM Post #1 |
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Liaison
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Japanese ethnogenesis is shrouded in mysteries because national homogenisation movements have contributed to a loss of worthy ethnographic information about ancient Japan. Only slowly the Japanese homogeneity myth is challenged. The younger generation already accepts the Jomon as pre-Japanese peoples. However, the the origins of the Japanese could turn out to be more multiracial than Japanese nationalists hope. Usually, the prehistoric elements of the Japanese is approximately summed up as follows: - Yezo: thought to be Ainu-related - Kumaso: thought to be Austronesian - "Yayoi": thought to be Korean-related. Certain parts of western Japan might show a relatively strong cultural affinity to Korea. Also, the incidence of y hg O2 in Japanese indicates Korean influence. But the Japanese phenotype cannot be simply reduced to a mixing between Koreans and Jomon people. source about Japanese average height (seems to be offline, use google cache): http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:vlIm_l...lient=firefox-a
Korean average height, which indicates the influence of a stock taller than that of a certain type of Japanese: http://www.koreaaward.com/korea/GeographyP...ePopulation.htm
Although Jomon/Ainu were/are as small as the Japanese (of their time), that doesn't explain Japanese leptomorphism. As far as I can judge, neither the average Ainu nor the average Korean is leptomorphic. Koreans are athletic/pyknic, similar to Shandongren, a Chinese population disconnected from the Koreans by the Bohai gulf (see http://www.chevron.com/news/press/images/bohai.gif ). Common cultural traits of the ancient peoples were found out: http://www.nacos.com/asn/104-1-4.html
DNA tests confirmed archaeological data: http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news111.htm
Btw, the biggest Japanese sample I had access to actually included y hg M45. It would be interesting to know whether this M45 came from Korea, China or even Europe: http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/jour.../980572.web.pdf Actually, the term "Yayoi" refers to a period, not necessarily to a specific, homogenous culture. Among the analysed Yayoi skeletons from three different regions there were three basic types: http://www.doigahama.jp/doigahama_e/html/topics.html Two of them were linked to China. Linguistic approaches on linking Japanese to other languages summed up: http://www.fukuokahistory.com/live/content/view/25/52/ http://www.fukuokahistory.com/live/index2....&do_pdf=1&id=25 I find the link to Austronesian in particular interesting: http://www.aasianst.org/absts/2000abst/Japan/J-185.htm In one of my other sources it was mentioned that tooth-blackening temporarily died out in (some parts of?) western Japan, but was in-introduced from eastern Japan. If my understanding of that text was correct, the Austronesian component must have been more than just a local phenomenon (on e.g. Kyushu). |
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| ren | Dec 8 2007, 07:33 PM Post #2 |
Yoda
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The name given to them, "Bear People" is thought to be a description of their looks, hairy, stocky... rather like Ainu. In my opinion they are more likely Jomon-derived, Ainu-related, but just living in the south. Besides the Kumaso, there are also others, such as the Hayato, also described as physically distinct from the Yamato people:  According to a quote from a book posted on the Japanese History Forum, the Hayato retreated to Satsuma and that is where their descendents are concentrated, which brings up another interesting point: Isn't "Satsumid" the paleamongolid type of pre-WWII European race science? There was also the Tsuchigumo, again perhaps a reference to stockiness, hairiness, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuchigumo. --- Also, there could very well be an Austronesian or more likely proto-Austronesian-related element in Japan, but more likely part of the Neolithic Yayoi process, most of which came from Korea but some coming from the Yangtze region of middle China and the Shandong region of eastern China, as evidenced by the tooth ablation or removal in these cultures as well the the Yayoi's tradition of tattoos. The blackening of teeth is also Austronesian? It was a fashion craze in early Chinese periods and could be introduced to Japan that way. |
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| black man | Dec 8 2007, 11:12 PM Post #3 |
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Satsuma province was located in SW Kyushu. But the anthropometric data from Kyushu I have is more or less useless for interregional (if not even international comparisons). First of all, there is a lack of facial height measurements: I've only four Kyushuite samples: one from "northern" prisoners, one from "southern" prisoners, one from Iki Island and one from Goto Island. The Iki and Goto Islanders seem to have high and broad faces on average, while the prisoners were apparently low-faced. It is not clear inhowfar the prisoners are representative for Kyushuite mainlanders. Moreover, I don't know whether the techniques of measuring made the results comparable. The Nishi and NSRG series imply an increase of facial breadth towards the south though measurement standards might have varied. But facial breadth is also increased in Iki and Goto Islanders. Jomon people and Koreans also have a certain range of craniometric variation according to different sources. So it cannot be said which physiological types predominate in modern Japanese. But generally, it can be said that Koreans (and Austronesians) are more short-headed than Japanese and Jomon people. As far as I remember, it was tried to bring both Satsuma and Ryukyuan populations into a connection with Austronesians. Concerning Okinawans, see z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.php?showtopic=1702 . Allegedly, even body odour relates not only Ryukyuans (or southern Japanese) but all Japanese physiologically to a stabilised hybrid type with an Ainu-like population. |
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| ren | Dec 8 2007, 11:47 PM Post #4 |
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Yoda
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Well, the Jomon, as far as I know, cannot in physical anthropology be diagnosed as "Mongoloid", since they don't have the characteristic set of cranial traits (metric, morphological, or epigenetic) to be diagnosable. This means that whereas a forensic anthropologist can pick up a Navajo skull in the American SW and determine it to be "Mongoloid", they can't do so with a Jomon skull... The Jomon are also fully Sundadont, not even in the intermediate sense of SE Asians but in the sense of Australo-Melanesians, Africans, Europeans. Since Japanese are both diagnosable as "Mongoloid" and as Sinodonts, I'd say they derive their features mainly from the yayoi. Even comparing pictures and paintings, I'd say this is clear. --- As for Korean variation, it indeed exists just based on seeing them. --- What interests me is Jomon variation... From the numbers, it seems the Jomon and Ainu and Okinawans have the shortest noses, which is also evident in older pictures. But I think I read that the Jomon nose, although short, also was projecting at the tip, with a stubby, protruding nose like "Cro-Magnon". Many modern Japanese also have this hook towards the lower end of the nose, which differentiates from the slight hook many East Asians have at the top of the nose, which I also have.  The short face and short, yet projecting nose is also characteristic of Kennewick Man, and in later reconstruction, not so different from Jomon reconstructions. The real Kennewick probably looks something between the two, like Ainu.   Interestingly, depictions of the earliest Ainu also show them to have that hook nose:           |
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| JCA | Dec 9 2007, 01:33 AM Post #5 |
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Actually, Japanese are not clearly diagnosable as "Mongoloid." Analyses of samples of Japanese often find them to be exactly opposite to Mongoloids (in the sense of East Asians) in the frequency of various traits. In regards to many presumably unadaptive traits, such as ABO blood type frequencies, Ainus are actually much closer to East Asians than Japanese are.
I think it's plainly obvious that Ainus, Southeast Asians, and subcontinental Indians tend to have perceptably shorter noses (probably due to shortness of the entire midfacial region) than most populations of northern East Asia or Native Americans. Manchus, in particular, always seem to me to have abnormally elongated noses; they do also tend to have longer-looking faces, too. On the other hand, Koreans tend to have short noses and puggish faces, rather similar to most Southeast Asians, for some reason. In my experience, Japanese people usually have longer faces and noses than either Ainus or Koreans. In fact, in terms of the general facial outline, Ainus and Koreans often look more similar to each other than either looks like Japanese in my opinion; Ainus and Koreans tend to have robust, primitive-looking jaws with short noses and tiny eyes. They often look rather like those Korwa men whose photos I posted in the Austro-Asiatic section of the forum a few weeks ago. Perhaps at least part of the reason why Ainus, Koreans, Southeast Asians, and many Indians appear to have such short noses actually might be because their noses have greater-than-average width, and therefore have a lesser ratio of nasal length/width. As for the "hook nose" phenomenon, that is definitely a typical characteristic of Japanese. I haven't seen any "hook noses" among other East Asian ethnic groups. Many Manchus and other northern Chinese people have what I might call a "prominent nose," with a high nasal root and a straight, well-defined nose bridge, but they are definitely not "hooked." That style of "prominent nose" looks like typical noses of Caucasian (e.g. Georgians) or Greek people, in my opinion. Japanese people, on the other hand, often have that hooked, eagle-beaky sort of nose that one can also find quite frequently among Arabs and some Native Americans. What about Tibetans? Do they sometimes have a hooked nose?
Iki Island is a small island located in the sea between northern Kyushu and South Korea, and the Gotoo Islands (it's actually a group of many islands, including five major ones, which is where the name comes from: Gotoo = Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese words for "Five Islands") are located just west of the northwestern corner of Kyushu. I doubt that the populations of these islands, which have suffered numerous incursions of Mongols, Koreans, and Manchurians during historical times, would be a good choice for representing the entire Japanese population of a large island like Kyushu. |
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| black man | Dec 9 2007, 02:13 AM Post #6 |
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Well, Tibetans are a mixed, linguistic unit rather than a homogenous ethnic group. There are probably West Eurasian influences in some Tibetan-speaking regions. The tibeticised Baltis are even predominately West Eurasian (or South Asian) by look and y-chromosomes. Other Tibetans resemble Siberians and northern Han. A relic of archaic populations absorbed by early Tibetan-speakers could be frizzy hair and broad noses. That might imply some substratum admixture of a phenotype comparable to those of Andamanese or Papuans.
Thanks for the information. What do you think about the way anthropometric data from Japan are presented? How many regional clines are likely and where would they be? |
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| ren | Dec 9 2007, 06:12 AM Post #7 |
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Yoda
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I mean in physical/forensic anthropology... What you are refering to? besides ABO blood type frequencies...
Not the Koreans I've seen on average... and I've seen a lot. Numbers can verify just who is right on that. I believe black man has some numbers on Koreans.
Koreans and Ainu? You wanna post pictures demonstrating this relationship? I have very different impressions from you, and I've seen and known a lot of Korean Americans. On average they have rather long faces and narrow noses. They females tend to have longer faces and smaller eyes than Japanese females. What really distinguishes Koreans from Japanese is actually the male side, with many Japanese males tending to have facial relief, no doubt from the Jomon heritage... sexual selection and sexual dimorphism in Japan onthe male is greater than in Korea. In that table above, the Korean sample also tend to have longer upper faces than Japanese, if you check the numbers, and nasla width is rather like Japanese, lower than Ainu and Jomon. I'm going to list some notable Korean Americans... Not the actors since that might be skewed... John Yoo, architect of the Patriot Act, pawn of Bush and Neocons:  Margaret Cho, comedian  Yul Kwon, survivor winner  Korean American journalist, K.W. Lee  another journalist  Pretty much what the average Korean looks like... |
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| JCA | Dec 9 2007, 06:44 AM Post #8 |
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I guess you're right that it would be misleading to classify Tibetans as a single group, since their population density is so low and different sections of their population appear to have been significantly influenced by different neighboring populations or substrata. However, I was just curious as to whether some of them had hooked noses, because I've heard so many people talking about an idea of a relationship between Tibetans and some Native American tribes. I asked about Tibetans because they are the one East Asian ethnic group with whom I have no personal experience, and I therefore cannot form any judgment about them based on my own perceptions.
Well, I'm only a humble student, and anthropometry (or physical anthropology in general) is not my primary field of study, so I'm not really qualified to offer anything more than opinions based on my personal experiences in regard to the subject of anthropometric studies conducted in Japan. That said, I do suspect that anyone who chooses the populations of Iki Island and the Gotoo Islands for an anthropometric study must have some peculiar agenda, such as proving admixture of the native populations of these islands with historical Asian invaders. Were the authors of the study that you referred to Japanese? Japanese researchers often have some quirks... As for regional clines within Japan, I can say with confidence that there is surely some sort of genetic border that fairly closely approximates the linguistic distinction between the Eastern dialects ("Kantoo-ben") and the Western dialects ("Kansai-ben") of Modern Japanese. "Kantoo" is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese words for "Barrier(Checkpoint)-East" and "Kansai" is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese words for "Barrier(Checkpoint)-West." There was a series of customs barriers in ancient times that hampered passage between the states of Yamato (equivalent to modern Nara Prefecture) and Yamashiro (equivalent to the southern half of modern Kyooto Prefecture) on the west and the states of Afumi (later Oomi; equivalent to modern Shiga Prefecture), Mino (the southern part of modern Gifu Prefecture), Iga (the northern part of modern Mie Prefecture), etc. on the east. Anyway, in modern times, the dialectal border runs along a line that roughly separates Toyama, Ishikawa, Fukui, Shiga, and Mie prefectures on the west from Niigata, Nagano, Gifu, and Aichi prefectures on the east. However, the modern dialects of Gifu and Aichi prefectures, two areas that were clearly "East of the Barrier" in ancient times, possess some Western Japanese features, and the modern dialects of Mie Prefecture, which is where the Grand Shrine of Ise is located, are rather peculiar but also possess many features that are similar to Eastern Japanese dialects, despite this region's having been mostly (but not completely) "West of the Barrier" in ancient times. So, on the southern side of Honshuu, there seems to be a clinal zone stretching across Gifu, Aichi, and Mie prefectures, within which various traits of Western Japanese and Eastern Japanese have become intermixed. In fact, the Japanese no longer refer to the Gifu-Aichi region as "Kantoo"; they now call this transitional region "Tookai-Toosan-doo" (East-Sea-East-Mountain-Route) and limit the reference of "Kantoo" to areas that are purely "Eastern Japanese." It also sounds rather odd to refer to Mie Prefecture as "Kansai," and this probably has something to do with the uniqueness of that region's culture and some of the similarities it shares with more easterly regions; Mie Prefecture really doesn't fit nicely into any of the conceptual categories Japanese people have for dividing Eastern Japan from Western Japan. On the northern side of Honshuu, the dialectal border is much cleaner. Anyway, it doesn't take a genius to distinguish a group of "Kansai" people from a group of "Kantoo" people. They tend to look, speak, and behave quite differently. On average, Kansai people have a look that vaguely resembles some sort of "South Chinese," and they speak very forcefully; I find Kansai dialect to sound rather nasty. They tend to be more outgoing and verbally and physically expressive. Kantoo people, on the other hand, tend to have a uniquely Japanese look that is not found anywhere else on Earth in my experience (they are very easily identifiable as "Japanese"), they speak softly, and tend to be very shy and inscrutable (they often, without warning, do things that make no sense to me, so they tend to get on my nerves in a "what the heck did you do that for?" sort of way). In addition, I have found that people from the western tip of Honshuu, namely the area of Yamaguchi Prefecture (ancient Nagato and Suoo states), which is categorized by the Japanese as part of the "Chuugoku region" ("Chuugoku" means "middle states" or "central states" and is cognate with the Chinese word for "China"), have a very distinctive look. They tend to have squarish or rectangular faces with jaws that are extremely robust. They also tend to have eyes that seem to be perpetually out of focus. People from Kyushu tend to have a vaguely European look that contrasts with the hyper-Asian look of people from the western end of Honshuu. Kyushu people (e.g. Fukuyama Masaharu, Hamasaki Ayumi, Tani Hayato, etc.) are popular in the world of Japanese entertainment because of their tendency to have very large eyes and generally handsome features. I also think Kyushu people tend to have rather dark skin on average, but that might just be due to their southerly location. Kyushu people also seem to be very short, but gracile. Actually, I must say that there is something of a resemblance between many Kyushuites and Andamanese aborigines (mainly Jarawas) that I have seen in photos. Also, there is a notable difference between the people from the western, northern, and eastern faces of Shikoku (Ehime, Kagawa, and Tokushima prefectures, respectively) and people from the southern face of that island (Koochi Prefecture). The dialects of Koochi Prefecture also have a lot of vocabulary of indeterminable etymology. In general, people from Koochi Prefecture (e.g. Hirosue Ryoko) seem to have lighter-than-average skin (despite being on the south side of the island) and tend to look like a gracilized version of my idea of a Korean-Manchu hybrid (e.g. Korean-shaped face, but with Manchu nose). People from the other parts of Shikoku tend to look like Kansai people and have dark skin. I would venture to hypothesize that the inhabitants of Koochi Prefecture are mainly descended from the ancient inhabitants of the island of Shikoku, whereas the people in the other parts of the island are probably descended in great part from recent immigrants from the Kansai region of Honshuu. I think women from southern Shikoku tend to be the most beautiful in the whole country, although some Kyushu females are also very rare beauties. People from the northern side of Honshuu, a region along the Japan Sea coast known as "Hokuriku" (from the Chinese for "north-land") and located across the mountains from the Kansai region, tend to look like a sort of mix between the weird type from the western end of Honshuu (the "big jaw, funny eye" type) with the Koochi Prefecture "indigenous? Shikoku" type. They tend to have very light skin and some have freckles. The people from this region are often quite ill-mannered, and people from other parts of Japan tend to avoid this region because of its reputation for "rude people." Some genetic studies have found Y-DNA haplogroup N at rather high frequencies (ca. 10%) in parts of this region. This is also one of the most rural regions of Japan, with some prefectures in the region having the lowest population densities in the country. However, when you cross from the Western Honshuu (Kansai) dialectal region into the Eastern Honshuu (Kantoo) dialectal region around the border between Toyama and Niigata prefectures (Toyama on the west, and Niigata on the east), the appearance and personality of the average person changes quite dramatically. People from the Niigata area and eastward, a region called the "Northeast" ("Toohoku," from the Chinese for "east-north"), tend to seem like especially good-looking Kantoo people. The men from this region are all extremely handsome and make me lose my self-confidence.  They also tend to be shy like other Kantoo people, and hardly any of them are rude jerks like the people from Hokuriku (that region of the Japan Sea coast north of Kansai).(Reason for edit: I had originally listed Afumi/Oomi/Shiga as being "West of the Barrier" in ancient times, but this province has actually only been considered as part of Kansai since the 12th century AD. I had forgotten that the Afusaka-no-seki > Oosaka-no-seki ("Barrier at Afusaka") originally separated Yamashiro from Afumi until the border was shifted eastward in the Kamakura Period. Unlike Mie Prefecture, however, there is no controversy whether Shiga should be included in the Kansai region; I suppose the area around Lake Biwa, which is actually the namesake of Afumi (/afumi/ > /oomi/ is the ancient name for Lake Biwa, apparently meaning "freshwater sea": c.f. Japanese */afa-/ > /awa-/ "faint, indistinct; fleeting" + /umi/ "sea; lake"), was early absorbed into the Kansai culture zone.) |
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| ren | Dec 9 2007, 07:54 AM Post #9 |
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Yoda
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Don't take offense but is it possible that some of these regional differences are exaggerated or subjective? You seem to define clear regional differences in a nation as geographically small as Japan. At least half the time I can't even tell a Korean from a Japanese, and I bet I can confirm that with you also if I posted pictures for you to guess whether they are Japanese or Korean. |
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| JCA | Dec 9 2007, 08:33 AM Post #10 |
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Well, black man asked me for my idea of where any anthropometric clines within the Japanese population, if they existed, were likely to be located, so I gave him an answer. These regions (Kyuushuu, Westernmost Honshuu ("Chuugoku region"), North(west) Coastal Honshuu ("Hokuriku region"), Kansai+West/North/East Shikoku, South Shikoku, Kantoo, Toohoku region) are linguistically well-defined regions of Japan, and there are also differences between the "average person" or "prototypical person" from each region that should be obvious to anyone who has spent some time in various parts of Japan. I would say the sharpest cline should be found between Kyuushuu and the Chuugoku region; there is no way a person could be unsure whether he was in Fukuoka (a city in northern Kyuushuu) or in Hoofu (a city in Yamaguchi Prefecture in western Honshuu). The people just don't look or act the same. The clines within Honshuu and Shikoku are generally more gradual, but the difference between western Honshuu and eastern Honshuu is quite well-defined on the north coast between Toyama on the west and Niigata on the east, although still not so sharp as the difference between Kyuushuu and Honshuu. |
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| black man | Dec 9 2007, 09:12 AM Post #11 |
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In "Racial history of the Japanese" Suzuki's metric data indicate that Jomon people(s) were generally broad-faced and long-headed. The text only mentions the differences between Tsukumo man and Hikozaki man, that were both found in Okayama prefecture, only 30 km apart from each other: all in all, Tsukumo man had a bigger face and a longer head than Hikozaki man, while Hikozaki man seemed to have the longer and more gracile limbs. Averaged facial breadths varied from 137,5mm (Hikozaki man, broad-faced like many modern populations, I suppose) to 144,6mm (Kanto Jomon samples, extremely broad-faced, as far as I can judge at the moment). I don't know about non-metric features.
If measured from nasion to gnathion (and not from upper orbital ridge), 74 and 54mm (for Korea) are moderately high, while 71 and 52mm (for Kanto) are rather intermediate. Yet, values as for the averaged living Korean and Japanese samples I know about indicate rather the opposite pattern. That is when I begin to wonder who measured what: a description of the living samples I'm aware of: - North Koreans/sample taken and by Bowles from Arase and other Japanese researchers and pooled: moderately high-faced and broad-faced, facial dimensions similar to those of SE Siberians. - South Korea/different studies: intermediate facial height, more or less broad-faced - Koreans in China/Shirokogorov and Hao: one low-broad-faced, the other of intermediate facial size. - North Koreans/Arase etc: 124 and 53. - North Koreans+Siberian coastal Koreans/Shirokogorov: 117mm. - southern Korean students/Kim et al. 2003: 121mm (nasion-menton, na-gn would thus be a bit less). - Liaoning Koreans/Hao et al. 1998: 120mm. - Western coastal Koreans/Koya: 119mm. - Kyonggi-Do (region around Seoul)/Ueda et al. 1942: 120 and 48mm. - Kyongsang Namdo (SE Korea)/Kohama et al. 1940: 120 and 48mm. - Shizuoka/central Honshu (Murata 1936): 128 and 54mm. - Satsuma/SW Kyushu (Kutsuna 1954): 124mm. - "Okinawa Ids" (Naito 1975): 130mm. - northern coastal Kinki(?)/Kanda 1989: 137mm. - southern coastal Kinki(?)/Kanda 1989: 139mm. - central Honshu/Kanda 1989: 137mm. - Kanto/Kanda 1989: 137mm. - northern Honshu/Kanda: 137mm. - western Honshu/Kanda: 136mm. - Kyushu (excluding the north)/Kanda: 133mm. BUT: - Akita (N Honshu)/Nakayama: 116 and 47mm. - Kinai (Osaka plus something else)/Nakayama: 119 and 50mm. - S Kyushu prisoners/Takahashi 1952(?): 111mm. - N Kyushu prisoners/Takahashi 1952(?): 113mm. - non-Kyushuite prisoners/Takahashi: 113mm. for a comparison: Hokkaido Ainu (Nakayama 1937): 118 and 47mm. As for Kanto, it seems to be that, according to Suzuki in 1969, the nasal height step-wise increases from 49,6 in neolithic Jomon age to 51,5 in protohistoric Kofun age, then decreases in the early Middle Ages to 51,1 and finally increases to become 52,5 in early modern period. The medieval "decrease" of nasal height might have been due to the samples sizes taken Yet, the pattern remains so gradual that it looks like the result of sexual selection for at least the last couple of centuries. Whatever would the historical development look like with bigger sample sizes, the samples appear to confirm that both a high-faced and a low-faced component were present in Japanese history. If one accepted the extraordinarily high values of Kanda as average na-gn for Japanese, then average Japanese would exceed not only average Inuits and Khampas as for facial height but perhaps also their own fathers and grandfathers. They'd be the most high-faced people of the world. Since that was never my impression, I suggest to compare these extraordinarily high facial heights with each other and maybe with those reported by Soviet researchers rather than with facial heights from "normal" studies. Accordingly, Kouchi about the Nishi series:
("spo"=supraorbitale) All in all, I'd guess that southern Kyushuites, some northern Honshuites and Ryukyuans are most likely to cluster with average central continentals as for facial height. The inhabitants of Kinki have the highest faces of all Japanese though it's not clear whether they are more high-faced that Inuits and Khampas. Other Japanese regional groups are mostly metrically in between. What is also remarkable is that reported Japanese high-facedness often correlates with reported broad-facedness also in newer studies (Kouchi 2004 for Kanto and Farkas 2005 for a small Japanese sample of unknown origin). So, if the data are correct, at least some Japanese populations are among the most big-faced in the world. Since Japanese high-facedness is concentrated in the Kinki area and moderate high-facedness was also reported for northern Kyushuite Yayoi skeletons (72-75mm upper facia lheight and 53mm nasal height in Suzuki's "The Minatogawa man" from 1982), that might imply the route of high-faced people(s) into Japan. And I also favour a population physiologically close to modern Koreans for this scenario. Yet, I didn't find any comparable population for it in my sources, except for the pooled northern Koreans. As the y-chromosomal data of Japanese indicates (special sublineage of hg O2b with 47z mutation), a subpopulation from ancient Korea with already specific features could have entered Japan instead. Or Japanese deviation from modern Koreans could have been the result of sexual selection. |
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| black man | Dec 9 2007, 10:21 AM Post #12 |
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Yes, that's why I asked you. As you can see from my post above (the long one with those metric data), Japanese sources contradict each other, in particular: - The upper faces of modern Japanese skulls from all region are reported to be not high (even low in the Okinawan case) in contrast to the morphological facial heights and nasal heights of living Japanese. - The data collected from living Japanese partly contradict each other. Actually, the studies on Goto and Iki islanders were conducted by Japanese. But the problem doesn't seem to be the studies themselves but rather that I lack knowledge of studies from other regions of Japan. Since my own ancestors were continentals, I'm less interested in Japanese pecularities and more in commonalities coincidentally and not coincidentally shared by Japanese and continentals. Unfortunately, Japanese seem to notoriously camouflage potential commonalities. Thanks for your detailed descriptions. Actually, the few available and contradictory anthropometric data on Japan make eyewitnesses necessary, I think: facial dimensions of Japanese samples according to different authors (facial breadths and heights in mm): - Kyushuites (Takahashi): 140; 111 and 140; 113=> close to Farkas' Angolans (140; 112) and Glinka's Slamet Javanese (140; 113). - Akita Honshuites (Nakayama): 143; 116=> close to Woo's Miaos (same values). - Kinai Honshuites (Nakayama): 144; 119=> close to Glinka's Balinese and Javanese and Miao samples from 2 further authors. - Farkas' Japanese: 147; 123=>close to Thais and Singaporeans from Farkas (both 147; 124). - Kanda's Honshuite samples: 141-144; 137-139: closest in facial height would be Ducros' Greenlanders (147; 134) and Teschke's Khampas (148; 136). - Kantoites/Kouchi 2004: 146-147; 124-125: close to North Koreans of Arase etc and Farkas' Singaporeans and Thai. - SW Kyushuites/Kutsuna: 142; 124=> close to Austronesians (Glinka) and Pathans (v. Eickstedt). - Kantoites/Murata: 141; 128=> close to Taiwanese aborigines (Glinka) and Kashmiris. - "Okinawa Ids"/Naito 1975: 143; 130=>close to Teschke's Sherpas (144; 129). |
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| kellerman | Dec 13 2007, 08:03 AM Post #13 |
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JCA/ I was under the impression of SW Kyushu including Satsuma makes a different cluster in phenotype. They tend to have more facial/body hairs and stockier bodies, and probably more Caucasian-look. And you have to consider a lot of Portugese and Spanish had lived in Nagasaki(Kyushu) for a while. BTW.. I wonder.. what's your theory on Japanese ethnogenesis then? The others/ I've lived in Korea for 15 yrs (I spent a year in Japan and China each, too) now, and I see there's gradual change in facial phenotype among generations of Koreans. Older ones usually fit in JCA's impression, you can easily find super-broad-faced old guy. But younger ones (from teens to 20's) tend to have longer face and nose, and even little bit more hairier than elders. I don't have anthropometrical data sets for younger generation, but I'll try to find some. There are many theories trying to explain this. One of my fellows suggested it's mainly due to more usuage of nasal sound in younger generations and change of diet.. I think the latter is more viable. Other notable things are.. 1. In spite of the change in face, younger Koreans seem to remain brachycephalic. I think meso or dolichocephalic Koreans are really rare.. 2. Koreans say there are regional variations in faces. |
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| black man | Dec 13 2007, 11:29 AM Post #14 |
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kellerman, thanks for your contribution and welcome to this forum. Although I cannot tell much about the possibly vast amount of anthropological data in East Asian archives, I'm quite sure that there is sparse data about hair and beard growth in Western archives. Part of what I found is mentioned at http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.php?showtopic=1563 and http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.php?showtopic=1562 . I suggest to continue discussion about beard and terminal hair growth based on personal experiences and according descriptions of the distribution "patterns".
There are some averaged anthropometric data from southern and central East Asia which imply that people with narrow faces tend to have short heads (certain ethnic minorities of NE China, certain SE Asians and women in general). Moreover, people with broader faces tend to have longer heads (like Mongols, Han and certain Tibetan-related groups). |
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| kellerman | Dec 24 2007, 01:24 AM Post #15 |
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Thank you for warm welcoming Blackman. Sorry for late reply.. busy days for me.. I've been rethinking about my impression of change in Korean faces after I read the thread on Korean heads. I forgot to consider that younger Koreans are taller than elders. This probably adds little bit to their average facial heights, too. And about hair growth.. Younger generations seem to have slightly more beard in their faces, but It's still less dense than western Eurasian's. Plus chest hair's very rare among Koreans.. From my public bath experience, I think less than 10% of them have prominent chest hairs. Some friends of mine told me that natives from southeastern and eastern shores of Korean peninsula usually have more facial hairs. If he's right on that, I guess it's related with haplogroup D2's route which probably followed eastern seashores of East Asia during glacial maximum. And many Korean archeologists and historians suggest there were back migration (which brought more hairy phenotypes) from Kyushu to southeast Korea after northern Kyushu was densely populated at some time around the beginning of common era. I was told that some researchers even suggest parts of SE Korea and northern Kyushu used almost same lingua franca, which was maybe closely related to Fuyu(Buyeo) languages. Anyways This can be another reason for regional variances of beard growth in southern Korea. And some out of topic and groundless theories of mine.. 1. virtual absence of O2b1a in Korea. I think O2b1a exists in Korea but its regional distribution is probably limited in parts of SE Korea (mainly former Gaya region). The upper strata of Gaya confedracy are thought to be result of later migration of Fuyu-related people (probably O2b1), but it seems like substrata were mixture of earlier immigrants (probably O2b1a) and other natives(?). 2. O3 History clearly shows there had been multiple waves of Chinese immigrants and refugees into Korean peninsula. It was like dominos. political unstability in China -> population movements from west to east into southern Manchuria and Korean peninsula -> in some cases even into Japanese archipelago. And I guess many of them were O3 bearers. Some of them probably took the route from Shandong to Liaodong peninsula (There are many islands scattered between them and archaeology clearly shows the route were known to ancient people before 1000 BCE). 3. Sea-faring route between Wu region and Japan AFAIK, there's totally no evidence of direct open sea-faring route between Wu region and Japan before Tang dynasty. It's possible that Kurosio current conveyed a few people and wet rice cultivation from Wu to Japan or southern Korea, but I think the-other-way-around trip against current was pretty much impossible by ancient technology. I was told even direct route from Shandong to southern Korea was discovered a lot later. I guess some Chinese possibly took the route from Shandong(or Wu) -> Liaodong -> along the coast of Korea -> southern Korea -> to finally Kyushu, Japan, if needed. |
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