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Gay marriage?; LET ME TELL YOU
Topic Started: Nov 8 2008, 03:20 PM (665 Views)
JeffreeStar
[ I ' M A S T A R ]
This topic might be a magnet for "tl;dr" or "LOL GAYS :]" but I'm going to try and be serious and I'd appreciate it if you were too! SO ANYWAYS!

There are ballot initiatives all across the country trying to deny equal rights to gays and lesbians. Not special rights - equal rights. No one is asking for an "I suck cock" tax break. All gay marriage initiatives do is provide the same rights and protections to gay couples as straight couples. Denying anyone rights, such as being able to visit your loved one in the hospital, is inhumane. If these laws were to ban mixed-race couples or inter-faith marriage or any of the other differences that make people unique, would it have such strong support?

A lot of the problem is based around faith. Well, like it or not, we're not a Christian nation. If we allow one religion's view to legislate the rights of all our citizens, where does it stop? If gays can't get married because "God made Adam and Eve", then why doesn't the government revoke citizenship status for anyone not Christian? If we're going to legislate Christianity, lets burn the Natural History Museum down for having skeletons of dinosaurs. Hell, burning is fun, lets go back to burning witches since the Bible says you can't suffer a witch to live. Maybe Congress can set up some stakes and we can burn all the Wiccans. That's equality!

That is not how this country works. There is a video by the Yes on Prop 8 camp that gets up in arms that San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom says gay marriage is going to "happen whether you like it or not." And you know what? That is true. Just like women got voting rights and black people finally got the right to sit wherever they want on the bus. Equality will happen whether bigots want it to or not and that is a BEAUTIFUL thing. As these old assholes who were raised in a culture were hating gays was acceptable finally do the world a favor and drop fucking dead, their children who grew up watching Wil and Grace will take over and equality WILL happen.

Connecticut just became the 3rd state in the nation to make gay marriage a reality for the many loving couples that live there. Again, the bigots who are behind the Yes on Prop 8 campaign posted this very deceptive video where a little girl comes home from school and happily tells her mother she learned in school today that two princes can get married and when she grows up she can marry a princess if she wants. Really cute, right? What an amazing message for tolerance and equity. But no, promoting tolerance and acceptance of everyone's lifestyles in schools is something to be feared and avoided! I personally don't think schools should teach anything about marriage - gay or straight - because that is a family matter. But schools should absolutely promote tolerance and acceptance of all. Or should we not learn about anyone who is different from us? Should we stop teaching white school children about Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks? Should only the deaf, dumb, and blind be able to learn about Helen Keller? Hell, if you have a vag then you get to skip out on most of American History because you don't need to know about our Founding Fathers. You should just be barefoot, pregnant in the kitchen making me a fucking sandwich. And lets not talk about that Ghandi dude. He's not the same as me so obviously nothing he said can have any value on my life!

This "defense of marriage" crap is largely based on a bunch of bullshit. A few weeks ago at a Senate hearing on equal family benefits for gay and lesbian federal workers, Howard Weizmann referenced the plot of "I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry" as evidence the program would be scammed. Since that movie was about two STRAIGHT guys scamming the system, don't you think it would prove heterosexuals are more likely to commit fraud? Oh wait, its not proving anything because its A FUCKING MOVIE! What's next, dictating our education policy based on Ferris Buller's Day Off? How about giving a copy of Tropic Thunder to our troops in Iraq and telling them to copy that?

Oh and speaking of gays in the military, fuck your Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Being gay shouldn't be some secret shame. We allow people of every color and creed in our nation's armed forces. Why should who you fuck make any difference? The government, based on Don't Ask Don't Tell fired Arabic and Farsi translators in the middle of a war with groups that primarily speak those languages. Even though we are desperately in need of competent translators to help us figure out terrorists threats, what hole you stick your dick in or if you're getting dicked at all is more important to the government than national security. This report goes back to 1998 so is it so outrageous to think that maybe if we had a competent translator working on the pre-9/11 chatter that tragedy could have been avoided? Is what goes on in someone's bedroom so important that we'd put the nation at risk because of it?

Denying gays their rights is NOT defending marriage. Gays are not mounting a crusade to make sure heteros can't get married. Gays are simply asking for the same LEGAL rights they receive. That is the issue at hand. Marriage is not just a union between you, your spouse, and God. The government grants you a whole slew of rights to go along with it and it is simply wrong to deny these rights to a group of people for any reason. And civil unions are NOT enough. Separate but equal did not work for racial issues and it will not work for issues based on sexuality. I'm sure the water at the "colored's only" fountain was just fine but I'm sure that it was a bitter drink for everyone who had to swallow it knowing that they weren't "good enough" to drink from the same fountains as their fellow white citizens. Intolerance and bigotry is intolerance and bigotry no matter how you label it. A consolation prize is not good enough. This is about erasing intolerance from our law books. There is no legal reason why gay people should not have the same exact rights as everyone else. None.

Now one may be wondering why I care so much about this considering I'm NOT gay, although if I was I would NOT be ashamed of it. The reason I care is because it's the RIGHT THING TO DO. Fellow human beings are being treated with such disrepect, hate, and even fear that it's unreal. Until people stop going with the crowd in their irrational fear of gays, things won't get better for them.
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Don't you live in Texas? wtf.


this post made you better than sliced bread
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房/-\沃
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Homosexuals are an abomination to any moral society and should all be hanged before we are corrupted beyond saving.
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HakktHazard
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I personally don't think gays should be able to get married, to me that's just wrong, but denying rights to visit a loved one in a hospital and likewise, that's ridiculous. I'll maintain my views that gays should not be able to be legally married, but they should still somehow receive those same rights as a group who is married.
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MARBLES
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Akakios
Nov 8 2008, 06:51 PM
Don't you live in Texas? wtf.


this post made you better than sliced bread
go go texas joke.
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Also I concur Jeeves. I can see legit opposition to some issues that often use religion as support (abortion, stem cells, assisted suicide) but can't find anything wrong with Gay Marriage other than its anti-religion and circular "It's always been as man and woman" problems. It's irritating that people oppose gay marriage in full knowledge that they don't need to participate in it. Gay Marriage doesn't only affect you, it doesn't affect anyone else, in fact it only benefits things for gay married couples!
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房/-\沃
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Well it would raise insurance rates.
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MARBLES
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I don't usually see the arguement of "benefits will go to gay couples too" being used though, it's often a moral judgement.
Edited by MARBLES, Nov 9 2008, 06:05 AM.
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HakktHazard
Nov 8 2008, 11:58 PM
I personally don't think gays should be able to get married, to me that's just wrong, but denying rights to visit a loved one in a hospital and likewise, that's ridiculous. I'll maintain my views that gays should not be able to be legally married, but they should still somehow receive those same rights as a group who is married.
Wrong how? because it's "unnatural"? No, it isn't unnatural:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

In fact, all it is is "different". Should you deny the marriage rights to people with Down-Syndrome because they're different?

If it's religious views, well then that only furthers the stereotype that the Bible promotes prejudice. (Which it does)
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房/-\沃
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You do realize that he is talking about homosexual marriage, not homosexual sex?
I think Jesse Ventura said it pretty well in a TV discussion I saw. I disagree with him on a lot of things, but he did put this issue pretty well. Basically, he says that the law shouldn't cover marriage at all, only civil unions for both homosexual and heterosexual couples. Meanwhile, private organizations like Churches can handle marriage and do with that what they wish.


Edited by 房/-\沃, Nov 9 2008, 06:17 AM.
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JeffreeStar
[ I ' M A S T A R ]
I just realized I didn't really ask a question, I just kind of put my opinions out there in essay-form. Whoops! But it is OK, this topic usually spurs some kind of discussion no matter how you phrase things.

I also noticed I didn't talk about gays in general, just their right to marriage. I think asking your opinion on gay people as a whole would have made a better topic, but it's okay! I will say this: Anyone who thinks gays weren't born gay and instead chose to be gay is clueless!
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房/-\沃
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Of course it's a choice, but not necessarily a conscious one. Homosexuality isn't genetic, it's a sexual preference. You aren't born with a preference of foods, you just try them out and you end up liking some and not liking others. When puberty hits and you start looking at people differently, you basically go through the same process. I picked the right choice: opposite sex. Those who pick same sex are a disappointment to both humanity and morality.
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JeffreeStar
[ I ' M A S T A R ]
Considering I have not been on this site for ages, I am not sure if you are joking with that last sentence, or if you are no longer the originator of that account, because the Tal I knew was actually smart! But I will take this at face value, but since I am taking your most recent post at face value, I will take your other posts at face value as well. Your first post in this topic said you think gays should be hanged, so you are a moron!

If it is not a conscious choice, it is not a choice! If I was having a horrible night's sleep and was tossing and turning, then suddenly flung myself off the bed, I would not have chosen to fall off the bed! That actually might be a horrible analogy, so let me try this again. If I viciously murdered twelve ballerinas while I was sleepwalking, I would suddenly wake up to find myself covered in blood and ripped fabric. I would have massacred those ballerinas, sure, but did I ever choose to do it? No. An unconscious choice is not what one would actually call a "choice," in fact it belongs in it's own category! You do not decide anything at all when you have an "unconscious choice" because the decision is made for you. Whether or not my ballerina brutalizing is a good enough analogy, the fact still remains: If you do something without realizing it, you did not choose to do so, therefore the word "choice" does not apply! In my hypothetical scenario, my body chose to slash through twelves torsos, but my conscious mind did not! In your sexual preference scenario, my body would choose to be gay, but my conscious mind would not! I would suddenly wake up one day and think, "Oh gee I'm attracted to that man over there, when did this happen, this is not cool!"

I suppose, maybe, you understand all of this! However, apparently not, because if you do you are incredibly unpleasant! You, I am fairly sure, agreed that it is not a conscious choice earlier in your post, and then later you say that gay people chose to be gay and they made a horrible choice and they are a disappointment to all of you ignorant bigots! So either you are contradicting yourself or you do not realize what a conscious and unconscious choice really is! Then maybe you actually do realize what an unconscious choice is, but if you do, then you are horrible because you are choosing to hate a group of people for something that they never actually consciously chose to do! That is like looking at someone with Down Syndrome and saying, "Oh look, Down Syndrome. You did not choose this but you should be hanged anyway for being so unfortunate!" I grew up in Texas which is a morally insensitive area but even I did not learn such Nazi views!

Meanwhile your post has me confused as you admit homosexuality is not a choice and then you say it is, but then you never really make sense! However I'll go about this the best I can.

You say homosexuality isn't genetic and that it is a sexual preference! I personally have no idea whether or not homosexuality is genetic, but I will say that it is OBVIOUSLY a sexual preference! Saying homosexuality is a sexual preference has nothing to do with whether or not it's a choice though, so I shall void that statement and deem it pointless!

Your food analogy has many flaws in it, the main flaw being you are completely wrong! You are born with taste buds, and these taste buds let you enjoy some foods while disliking others. Never in your life do you choose to like certain foods. You do not take a bite of shrimp alfredo for the first time and think "Should I like this or not? Golly, I think I WILL like this!" and then suddenly for the rest of your life you're scarfing down shrimp alfredo and becoming very obese because you chose to like that certain food. Your taste buds, and actually your nose as well, dictate what types of food you like and dislike. You cannot control what your taste buds, or your nose, thinks. I don't know about you, but when I was born I wasn't consciously growing my taste buds to like shrimp alfredo, they grew themselves! So, like you said, you end up liking some foods and disliking others, but in the end you have no control over whether or not you like those things because it was chosen for you! Personally, I hate all baked fruits! I have never been able to enjoy pie because I cry every time I bite into a baked apple; it disgusts me! I have tried my whole life to enjoy pie seeing as how everyone else adores it, but sadly I have no control over the situation. It is the same for homosexuality. Never in their life have gays made a conscious choice to be gay, in fact I am sure a lot of gay people try, try, and try to become straight, and fail, much like my personal struggles with apple pie! In no way does your food preference analogy successfully contribute to your argument!

So here we are: The last few statements that you have made. I must say that they make no sense! The rest of your post is basically telling me that homosexuality is NOT a choice, and then suddenly you say you chose to be straight and that all gays chose to be gay and they are all an embarassment to mankind! I am afraid that now I will take this time to point out that YOU are the embarassment to mankind! In this day and age I expect people to use their brains more, but you unfortunately have not! You are blatantly hating a group of people for something that they cannot control! And I shall say this again: They CANNOT control it! Even if it was a choice, and it is not, noone would choose to be gay strictly because of people like you! Homosexuality is so unneccessarily hated and feared in society today that noone in their right mind would wake up one morning in 8th grade and think "Hmm, you know what would really be fun for the rest of my life? Being hated" and then all of a sudden boom they are gay! That's NOT how it works!

And are you really telling me you chose to be straight? When you say that do you mean that you actually woke up one day and said "Looks like today is the day, straight or gay, I choose straight!" or do you mean that you just went with the flow and never actually TRIED to be gay. Let me tell you right now, I am 100% POSITIVE that the first option DID NOT happen, I am SURE that you went with the flow and never tried to force yourself to be gay. I'll tell you right now, that is the EXACT SAME SITUATION with gay people, only flip-flopped - they go with the flow and END UP GAY. The only DIFFERENCE is, after realizing they're having gay feelings, gay people TRY to force theirselves into liking the opposite sex, only it NEVER WORKS because that's an impossible thing to do, just like if you had tried to be gay it wouldn't have worked! You are who you are, and what I mean when I say that is that most of your decisions and preferences are chosen for you, such as the ballerina slaying, the shrimp alfredo loving, and, YES, the HOMOSEXUALITY. Being gay is not a choice. This is not some big gay conspiracy where all gay people have SECRETLY CHOSEN to be gay, this is REAL, and this is FACT:

IT'S NOT A CHOICE.

So now that this is established, I guess the real problem is: You, you who can so easily and openly hate someone for something they can't control. However, the world is finally opening it's eyes. The days of slavery are done thanks to those with actual functioning brains, and soon the days of homosexual hate will also end. Your illogical hate does not matter in the long run because people who think in the same fashion as you will eventually just be drowned out by the voices of people who actually have a good fucking opinion.
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MARBLES
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I guess, even if it were a choice, would it matter? It's someone choosing to be with someone he feels most comfortable with, and it may be someone of his own gender! Unless it is genetic it would seem reasonable that sexual orientation comes from experiences one has which would lead to an attraction of the same sex as opposed to a different sex. Is that a choice? It seems more like it just ended up that way.
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JeffreeStar
[ I ' M A S T A R ]
While I typed out the whole dictionary, nubbins has said the exact same thing as me only in one paragraph. I wish I could do that!

Meanwhile let me point out that yes, even if it was a choice, it's not some big nasty horrible thing. But according to some people, being happy with the one you love is some sort of crime.
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Dragon you've said exactly what I've wanted to say except I couldn't word it correctly.

i luv u
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房/-\沃
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It is definitely not genetic, and I agree with you overall. I was just operating under the terms where people either say it's genetic or a choice, when your explanation makes more sense.

That said, I think both the economy and the moral fiber of america would improve if we brought back slavery for homosexuals.
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Deschain
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JeffreeStar
Nov 10 2008, 03:08 AM
I just realized I didn't really ask a question, I just kind of put my opinions out there in essay-form. Whoops!
That's fine. It's called 'Debate and Discussion' for a reason. : )

Quote:
 
Anyone who thinks gays weren't born gay and instead chose to be gay is clueless!


I always had this theory that infants are born without sexuality and that it somehow developes through their experiences. Iunno, call me crazy.
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Gay isn't genetic, its a personality trait which don't necessarily come just from genes but also inherent human element, life, and chemical balances
tldr being gay isn't a choice, or a disease, or a natural born thing. its a culmination.


edit: i can pull up peer reviewed studies as sources for this if you wish
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Iron Angel
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Oh lawd
I'd like to straighten something out. The only "faith" stopping gay marriage is wacko nutjob baptists who take everything in the Bible out of context because they've never actually read the damn thing. Most people are guilty of this art of taking one verse and making an entire system of beliefs, positive or negative, out of it. Despite the crazy groups that tote around signs saying "God hates fags" and shit like that, the Bible is totally silent on the issue. Every issue God gives a shit about is covered several times in lengthy description, from murder, to theft, to innumerable other shit he's not so keen on. yet theres not a single mention of homosexuality in the bible save for one misconstrued verse about 'Man laying with man". In the Bible, all of humanity is referred to as "man". Women AND men. But thats not even the point; Men are not to be laying with men in TIMES OF FAMINE, because they are needed to work.

That said, inb4 PV's pussy hurts and he makes a rant about Jesus and how God is behind everything wrong in his life. I support gay marriage. Its not hurting anybody.
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Well let's say the Bible did say "Kill gays they're an abomination" (Which out of context it certainly looks like that), it wouldn't matter because of separation of church and state.

Marriage isn't a strictly religious thing. Two atheist people getting married is still called a marriage.
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