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I like it when Atheists are honest.
Topic Started: Sep 4 2007, 06:20 AM (755 Views)
Mr. Storm
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"Whatever the future holds, it is likely to prove impossible to restore in full the sanctity-of-life view. The philisophical foundations of this view have been knocked asunder. We can no longer base our ethics on the idea that human beings are a special form of creation, made in the image of God, singled out from all the other animals, and alone possessing an immortal soul. Our better understanding of our own nature has bridged the gulf that was once thought to lie between ourselves and other species, so why should we believe that the mere fact that a being is a member of the species Homo sapiens endows its life with some unique, infinite value?

Once the religious mumbo-jumbo surrounding the term 'human' has been stripped away, we may continue to see normal members of our species as possessing greater capacities of self-consciousness, communication, and so on, than members of any other species; but we will not regard as sacro-sanct the life of each and every member of our species, no matter how limited its capacity for intelligent or even concious life may be. If we compare a severely defective human infant with a non-human animal, a dog or a pig, for example, we will often find the non-human to have superior capacities, both actuall and potential, for rationality, self-conciousness, communication, and anything else that can plausibly be considered morally siginificant. Only the fact that the defective infant is a member of the species Homo sapiens leads it to be treated differently from the dog or the pig. Species membership alone, however, is not morally relevant."

Doesn't that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside people?

It's amazing what happens when you change one key component of a worldview. It truly is. One minute change can lead to such a vast difference.

His argument is sound, his logic, if you come from his perspective, is undeniable. So why does it send shivers down my spine?

Is it some kind of species selfishness? Being trained to think that way? Or is it something deeper?

Well, I suppose that depends on your worldview, like everything else.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo Galilei
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The Monkey Overlord
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i didnt read any of that, but i love the look on atheists faces when they find outthat a Christian has bashed the crap out of what they belive.
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Darth Makar
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Well, he does have a fairly good argument there in the sense that he is honest and whatnot and tells it clearly.

But what do we do? "Humanely euthanize" severely defective children because they are equal to a bad dog?

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Mr. Storm
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His arguement is that we should treat a defective human no better than a undefective dog or pig.

So yeah, basically it doesn't matter if your human anymore, what matters is if your perfect enough for our society today.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo Galilei
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Fullmetal
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Sep 4 2007, 08:35 AM
i didnt read any of that, but i love the look on atheists faces when they find outthat a Christian has bashed the crap out of what they belive.

I never saw that happen. Not even once. And besides, this isn't about religion bashing. Read before saying "lol, Christians > Atheists" next time.
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Game Freak
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Fullmetal
Sep 4 2007, 05:39 PM
Gen. Gilmer
Sep 4 2007, 08:35 AM
i didnt read any of that, but i love the look on atheists faces when they find outthat a Christian has bashed the crap out of what they belive.

I never saw that happen. Not even once. And besides, this isn't about religion bashing. Read before saying "lol, Christians > Atheists" next time.

yeah, cuz the way i see it athiests>hidu>christians w00t for teh afterlifez!

or is that buddhism...meh...i wanna be a dog :(
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Panther III
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Sep 4 2007, 07:34 PM
Fullmetal
Sep 4 2007, 05:39 PM
Gen. Gilmer
Sep 4 2007, 08:35 AM
i didnt read any of that, but i love the look on atheists faces when they find outthat a Christian has bashed the crap out of what they belive.

I never saw that happen. Not even once. And besides, this isn't about religion bashing. Read before saying "lol, Christians > Atheists" next time.

yeah, cuz the way i see it athiests>hidu>christians w00t for teh afterlifez!

or is that buddhism...meh...i wanna be a dog :(

Actually f- you GFN. I'd like to ask you why you are atheist, what do you think created the universe.

And I have seen christians shut up atheists FM. =P
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Mr. Storm
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I've seen Christians shut up Atheists, and Atheists shut up Christians.

What I can't stand is ignorance and blind faith. On EITHER side of the aisle.

"ZOMG, LIEK, ALL T3H SCINTISTZ SYA TAT T3H EVOLUTION SI CMOMN GNAWLIDGE!11!11!11!1!"

Oh really? Have you done your own research on the subject, or do you take the words of others to define such an important belief?


"so like when the earth was created over six dats and ken ham says that their was a canopy covering the earth which like caused a worldwide flood to punish man for being gay! i mean srsly why would you be gay when the puzzle pieces dont fit? lololololol!"

...*shoots self*





ANYWAY, back to the subject at hand...
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo Galilei
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Negasquid
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I figure humans are on par with all other lifeforms and should not treat them as though we are superior. Even if we are 'smarter' it is no reason to flew our muscles and kill everything. We are not better, no matter what your chosen deity says. If anything, I think our existence should be erased from the planet, we definitely cause a lot more harm than any other animal here.

Onto other subjects brought up.

Last time i went to Redding someone walked up to me and my brother when we were in the dollar store. He asked if we had found jesus christ. We said no. He promptly told us we were going to hell unless we embrace jesus christ. That sounds pretty *censored* elitist to me, and I don't even believe in that stuff. So my brother and I went on the offensive. Soon we got him defending his deities existence with there all to common phrase 'gods word'. Wow. Imaginary friends can tell you they exist, right? Doesn't mean they do. If thats offensive I'm sorry, its just an example. When that guy was trying to convert us my brother brought up evolution. Wanna know the first thing he said in response? 'How can you think something as great as humans could be related to something so privative. God placed us on this planet to rule all other lifeforms.' I wanted to punch that guy in the face. That isn't all to rare either to what I've found. When my cousin used to live with us he tried to convert us a few times and couldn't go one time without his human superiority complex. When you think about it, religion has done a fair share in the destruction of the environment. The human superiority complex brought up in that along with telling us to multiply has really allowed us to do a big number of what is now irreversible damage to damn near everything. And thats my big beef with christianity (adding the elitism if you forgot about it).

Haven't done a religion rant in a while...
I did go off-track, sorry (but everyone else did aswell).

One more thing:
I have never seen an atheist one upped by a chrisitan. Not saying it isn't possible though, this is just to the second post.
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Mr. Storm
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Eh, I completely understand you sentiment. Whether you believe in Jesus or not, shoving it down someones throat just doesn't make any sense. As far as Evolution, it has its own slew of problems which can be discussed elsewhere.

As far as the damage religion has done, yes, yes it has. Any faith, anywhere, has done damage. The Inquisition, Crusades, what's happening today, independence wars in Israel, etc. can all be traced back to a religion. Atheism is no exception. *points to Mao, Stalin, Hitler*

And yeah...that's another reason not to stuff a faith down someone's throat. It not only won't work, but it'll cause resentment.


Back to the main point of the thread, so, would you agree with his analysis that an unflawed pig is more valuable than a retarded human?
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo Galilei
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Negasquid
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they are equal, everything is and should be treated that way. I can see the reason to isolating something with a dangerous...condition but otherwise its all the same to me.

Totalitarian governments have their own flaws and such going on, they just disband religion because they think it makes the citizens easier to control. I actually hear china is 'suggesting' to their citizens to convert to christianity because they believe its the reason the west is so 'successful'.
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Darth Makar
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Religion (atheism included) is a choice, no matter how you look at it. You can't go around forcing people to believe it whether you really want them to or not. I don't think God's sitting up in heaven tallying "God Points" for us all. "Hey, it looks like Makar converted ten people by brutally murdering their family members. +10 God Points." Eh, I don't think so.

But I think people blow this all out of proportion, atheists especially. They run around saying "OMG Christians are liek taking over the world!!11!" but then they turn around and try to shove atheism down people's throats. Taking "God" out of the national currency, not allowing prayer in schools, removing Christ from Christmas.

I think it's on both ends of the spectrum: crazy religious people and crazy atheists who think that people have to believe what they believe or else. Sure, non-believers of Christ may all burn in hell, but beating people to a pulp isn't going to do anything. Fortunately the Church and most Christian denominations realize that. People have freewill, and if they don't want to believe in God, they have a right. Similarly, if I want to worship in public places and believe in the one and only God, that is my choice, not the Atheists.

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Back to the main point of the thread, so, would you agree with his analysis that an unflawed pig is more valuable than a retarded human?

Heck no. All human life is valuable. Humans have free will whether they're retarded or not. They may not be able to express that in the same way that other people are, but they still have it. Animals do not. I love animals very much but I don't think that they are quite on the same plane.

Though this whole thing gets kind of scary if you think, What if we were on a planet which allowed human euthanizations like pet euthanizations because there was some greater "better" race. (Like planet of the apes? I don't know.) Would that be okay because they are the superior race? I think not. It comes down to the matter of which races have free will. Animals have instincts and they follow nature. Humans can choose between right and wrong.

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Mr. Storm
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Negasquid
Sep 4 2007, 11:53 PM
they are equal, everything is and should be treated that way. I can see the reason to isolating something with a dangerous...condition but otherwise its all the same to me.

Totalitarian governments have their own flaws and such going on, they just disband religion because they think it makes the citizens easier to control. I actually hear china is 'suggesting' to their citizens to convert to christianity because they believe its the reason the west is so 'successful'.

Well, according to our boy Singer...

"If we compare a severely defective human infant with a non-human animal, a dog or a pig, for example, we will often find the non-human to have superior capacities, both actual and potential, for rationality, self-conciousness, communication, and anything else that can plausibly be considered morally siginificant."

It seems to make sense to me. Do you disagree with it?


Oh, and a key part of communism, and Nazi Germany's government, is/was atheism, so it's not merely controlling the masses.

China is suggesting people join the government-controlled "Three Self" church, actual Christianity is considered a crime and is punishable, at times depending on the degree of "disobedience" against the government, by death. Of course, we don't hear that very much at all, do we?




@ Makar


Hmm...I agree. XD
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo Galilei
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Negasquid
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Darth Makar
Sep 4 2007, 11:11 PM
But I think people blow this all out of proportion, atheists especially. They run around saying "OMG Christians are liek taking over the world!!11!" but then they turn around and try to shove atheism down people's throats. Taking "God" out of the national currency, not allowing prayer in schools, removing Christ from Christmas.

separation of church and state. It not just a war on religion, its upholding constitution rights. I'm pretty sure that the nation motto being 'In god we trust' is separation of church and state. That wasn't even started until the second red scare were the nation felt it had to be overly-religious to counteract the communists.
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Skulltula
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Sep 4 2007, 09:28 PM
Actually f- you GFN. I'd like to ask you why you are atheist, what do you think created the universe.

What created God? If God has no beginning, why can't the universe? Hell, why can't the universe be the embodiment of God?

Anywho, I can see where this stuff is coming from. However, if we are superior to animals, and as social creatures it's just as natural to care for the disadvantaged as it is to ditch them and leave them to fend for themselves. However the question shouldn't be "is a flawed human more or less valued than a perfectly normal animal?" The question should be "that flawed creature, does living cause it pain?" For example, shooting a dog because it's old and in pain, as I see it, is humane. The fact it's alive is causing it a lot of pain, the humane thing to do is to end that pain. However if the animal is just old, but it's not in pain, killing it is just cold-blooded. Same idea with a human.

What I meant by just as natural to care for them is simple, we develop emotional attachments for a reason, we're social. Emotional attachments allow us to fulfill a need. However self-preservation and the idea of keeping the group alive is also a very natural one. Sometimes the emotional attachments conflict with what is best for the group. That's where cold logic comes in. Can we care for the person without it harming the group in a big way? If so, then we have a right too. If not, well, I'm glad our society is not in a position where those less fortunate have to face the alternative.
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Mr. Storm
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Negasquid
Sep 5 2007, 12:37 AM
Darth Makar
Sep 4 2007, 11:11 PM
But I think people blow this all out of proportion, atheists especially.  They run around saying "OMG Christians are liek taking over the world!!11!" but then they turn around and try to shove atheism down people's throats.  Taking "God" out of the national currency, not allowing prayer in schools, removing Christ from Christmas.

separation of church and state. It not just a war on religion, its upholding constitution rights. I'm pretty sure that the nation motto being 'In god we trust' is separation of church and state. That wasn't even started until the second red scare were the nation felt it had to be overly-religious to counteract the communists.

Before I go anywhere, the national motto, in my opinion, should be "E Pluribus Unum." Not "In God We Trust." Both, ironically, are shown on our currency. Anyway...

Point seperation of church and state out to me in the Constitution please.

The closest you'll come is the first amendment which says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Now, I'm going to make the venture that the amendment means that the government shall make no law that says Christianity is the official religion of America.

First of all, notice the text. It says "Congress shall make no law respecting..." That means Congress can't make laws that say "We must pray in schools." On the contrary, it cannot make laws saying "You must NOT pray in public schools" according to the second phrase of the amendment. "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The government must remain completely neutral on the religious scene, favoring no belief set.

That means it doesn't favor Christianity, Islam, Atheism, Judaism, or Buddhism.


However, looking at it from a historical perspective, it doesn't shock me at all that Christianity has such a firm hold on our nation. The great majority of the founding fathers were either Christians or Deists. Not that hard to figure out that they would have an influence on our nation as is...


@ AT


As I've posted elsewhere, we live in, among other things, a time dimension where one event follows another. Time passes. Everything ages. Throughout our lives, we learn that effects always have causes. We would be confused if they didn’t. Therefore, it is hard to imagine the first cause, and even harder to imagine what, if anything, preceded “The First Cause.”

One could venture just as God created the universe and everything in it, God also created time. There was a beginning of everything, including space and time. Consequently, God is outside of space and time. This means that God is unchanging. He had no beginning and has no ending.

You cannot say the same thing for the universe. The universe cannot be outside itself. I cannot create myself, it's simple common sense my friend.

As for the rest of your post, I would agree with your logic, from your perspective for the most part.

However, if the common good of mankind is ensured, if we can ensure the ending, or dramatical decrease of mental illness, by sterelizing (or killing, I suppose) all mentally ill people and their offspring, should it be done?
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo Galilei
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Skulltula
Mr. Storm
Sep 5 2007, 12:53 AM
You cannot say the same thing for the universe. The universe cannot be outside itself. I cannot create myself, it's simple common sense my friend.

However, if the common good of mankind is ensured, if we can ensure the ending, or dramatical decrease of mental illness, by sterelizing (or killing, I suppose) all mentally ill people and their offspring, should it be done?

If God doesn't need to be created, neither does the universe. Frankly, I think we'll never know the answer to this because we're limited in our understanding. I feel organized religion is pointless to me, because they try to answer questions I don't think we can ever fully understand (granted I don't this means we shouldn't stop trying). Granted I think God is in everything, I think God is science, is nature, is my dog, and is me.

The thing is though, mental illness is hard to predict. It seems to be, in a lot of cases, either a mutation that can't be foreseen, an imbalance that can't be foreseen, or an inherited trait that has a good chance of not being passed on. Add to the fact that a lot of people with debilitating diseases, on a mental level, probably don't tend to reproduce as that's not an attractive trait to have in a mate. Plus the greater good is to care for these people if the resources are there. It's the ethical thing to try to pull people up with you, not to try to kill them off because they're inferior.

Plus initiatives do such things tend to be fueled by hatred and abused. In Alberta it was legal for the government to forcibly sterilize people they thought to be of genetic stock. The idea doesn't sound racist, at a glance. However they decided that the inferior genetic stock that needed to be rooted out was related to the natives, so nearly all the people forcibly sterilized were natives. Natives who were already being forced to suffer the status of third-rate citizens (forced to go to schools meant to basically brainwash them into giving up their culture, for one thing). This was the basic model that Nazi-Germany looked too when it came time for a final solution.

Basically, the idea would turn into a genocide, and when we have the means to support the people, it's not an ethical thing to do. You have to ensure the survival of the group, however we live in a society where the group can survive despite the fact that person beside me is blind and deaf, or the person beside you has the mind of a 3 year old and the body of a 30 year old. If it was a culture where we couldn't survive and support these people, I would say the greater good dictates we leave them to fend for themselves, as heartless as that sounds to me.
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Mr. Storm
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You again come to the point that doesn't make sense. How can the universe create itself? The universe, including time, cannot create itself. While, if an extra force was outside of the universe and time, it is extremely plausible that such a force could influence, modify, or generate events in the aforementioned universe without itself being affected.

I hear this often. But I always wondered, what does God mean to you? Saying everything is God makes no sense to me...probably because I have a different meaning of God than you. So, care to enlighten me? :)



Generally, as you kind of mention, mental defects can be traced to genes. However, sometimes those mutations can occur, causing, pardon my insenstive language, freak accidents.

Now, if you sterilized/euthanized all the mutants (again, pardon my bluntness) and the genetic carriers of these genes, wouldn't it be for the good of humanity and therefore ethical? The more handicapped people we have, the less effective we are. In a realistic sense, there is no need for these people, they produce little to nothing compared to their unflawed counterparts, while also placing a drain on humanity's reserves. Those drugs and doctor visits cost money and resources.

Ethics are relative to the society in which you live, so all people need to do is accept the aforementioned arguement, and suddenly the ethics we've had for such a long time go out the window.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo Galilei
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A) Those drugs and doctor visits create jobs to find a way to prevent or perhaps fix what's wrong in a humane way. They are a part of the economy. An autistic person may never become an engineer, however he allows for an industry to be created and maintained.

B ) Again, the problem comes down to who decides what qualifies as inferiority? Consensus changes too often for it to be valid, a small group of people never should have such power, so when it comes to killing or forced sterilization, there's no real solution. Otherwise we could end up wiping North America of Natives and Mexicans, and the Middle East of Jews. That thinking tends to lead to genocide, and I think all of us here would agree genocide is never good.

C) (going to the top part of your post now) The point makes just as much sense as God being eternal, granted I believe in neither, I can see how some would rather the universe has always been rather than God creating the universe. Either you have to assume something came from nothing or something was always there, and some people are too disillusioned by religion for God to be a comfort. The point doesn't make sense to you because, very simply, you don't believe in it. I'm applying what's believed about God to the entire universe as a whole, and it can't make sense to you because, well, it's just a different thing. many Australian Aboriginal people believe basically what I said, that the Earth was eternal, just like how you believe God is eternal. No beginning, no end. Just is, just was, just will be. Simple as that. Me, I believe everything has a start and the end, so I think the universe had a start, and whatever started that had a start. Hell, maybe it's all circular, who knows.

D) To me, I cannot imagine God as one single being. I have no definite logic in what I believe, I can't. It's all a gut feeling. However, basically I believe science is the tools of God. God, being (of course), a generic term here as I really have not felt the need to name my belief, since it's nothing particularly unique so naming it something unique would be a bit arrogant of me. Basically, I think everything is God because we all come from God. God isn't a single entity watching us, but God is the sun, God is the grass, God is everything that is life, in essence. God is all that's wrong and right with the world, love and death. Basically, I'm of God because I was born into this world. Even the people I particularly hate get this luxury. Even they get the same right to life I have, I believe. May wish some people would vanish, on some level, but I'd admit on another level everyone has a purpose. Basically, my beliefs sum up as this:
- God is the universe, since God is the universe, everything is God. As for where the universe came from, I will never know. I found a Buddhist quote just now that sums it up: "Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it." I always say that I still think we should still look, this is because I believe in one truth, but I think when it comes to something this huge, it's not something that will be obvious. It is something that requires all of us to try to answer, so if we really want to know the truth of the origin, we all need to try to find it our own ways. Even if it means some, like me, will shun the idea of that truth being found. Basically, to see the truth you need to look at all the angles, that requires everyone with an idea on it to pitch it. I think the right one will be incredibly obvious to us when we learn it, and will supercede all the other answers.

- God is science, as such science created us, we weren't molded from clay, we didn't come from an egg, we came through means unknown (but speculated), but still through science. As such I believe to understand the universe we need both science and philosophy, as both try to find the same answers, but through different means.

- The universe is, in my view, best described as an ecosystem, but obviously on a huge scale. This means the universe tries to keep some equilibrium going through natural means. Basically, meddling isn't the traditional view of it, where it's overt, but more subtle things to try keep things, overall, constant.

- As such, I have no belief in fate, at the most I believe the end is predestined, but not how we get there. Even that seems far-fetched to me and really unlikely.

This all may sound like shit to you, but to me it's more comfort than any organized religion, and I like the fact my beliefs can changes as I learn more. Frankly, organized religion never made much sense to me. I think religion is a personal thing that everyone should discover on their own.
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Trevuar25
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Negasquid
Sep 4 2007, 10:41 PM
I figure humans are on par with all other lifeforms and should not treat them as though we are superior. Even if we are 'smarter' it is no reason to flew our muscles and kill everything. We are not better, no matter what your chosen deity says. If anything, I think our existence should be erased from the planet, we definitely cause a lot more harm than any other animal here.

If you honestly believe we should all be erased maybe we should start with you! :P


*Erases you*
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