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Election '08
Topic Started: Feb 18 2007, 08:56 PM (1,441 Views)
Naoko
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I, THE GREAT PAPYRUS
3nigma... Ad hominem. Try attacking his point instead of saying he didn't make one, because he did - and it was simply his opinion on who he thinks should be president. Who one thinks should be president isn't like math, it's an opinion, and there's no right or wrong answer unless you vote for Hitler. I see nothing wrong with his points except that he could beef them up a bit more, but they're just his reasons for choosing who he has.

Lolly, even worse ad hominem. You guys all suck with ad hominem. What's this have to do with anything? Who cares if he's a liberal, is that bad or something? I never said it was bad to be a conservative, but okay then. Also, political jokes are okay, but not on this forum. I've already clarified multiple times to stop bashing like this on other threads. Please stop covering your debate with silly things like this, and just debate. They don't help you any when you're trying to have a serious conversation. Please, keep the joke crap somewhere else, because it's not helping anything here, and no one here is above the rules.

Also Lolly, as a politics student myself, I find it hard to believe that ANYONE on this forum knows the entire Constitution and Bill of Rights like the back of their hand. (And no, I don't want to become a lawyer for the ACLU. Lawyer + me = NO.)

I have to agree with B on Obama. I like Obama, too. But I don't think he can make it. I still think Vilsack is a better candidate and has a good chance from the primaries. (Remember last time? Dean was on top until the primaries. It could happen here, too.) But nobody knows about Vilsack, so... -_-; With where most of those republican candidates stand on the issues and whatnot, I don't think it's very likely for me to choose them anyway. Thus I have those three to pick from, and yeah, I greatly prefer Obama out of them. Simple reasons have already been stated.

And Lolly, I don't see why you support Giuliani. From the things I've read about him, he's pretty liberal on some issues, like B said.
Sorry if it seems I'm attacking you guys, but I don't see anything wrong with what B has said. He's been stating his opinions and I don't see any rude remarks recently.
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(B)
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Chu Chu
Naoko
Feb 22 2007, 08:41 AM
I have to agree with B on Obama. I like Obama, too. But I don't think he can make it. I still think Vilsack is a better candidate and has a good chance from the primaries. (Remember last time? Dean was on top until the primaries. It could happen here, too.) But nobody knows about Vilsack, so... -_-;

I honestly (and shamefully) know very little about Vilsack (other than his naughty-sounding name). What are your thoughts, etc, on him, Naoko?
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"L"
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Zetsubo Billy
Naoko
Feb 22 2007, 08:41 AM

but I don't see anything wrong with what B has said. He's been stating his opinions and I don't see any rude remarks recently.

QFT...imo.
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LollyWolly
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I didn't say I knew it like the back of my hand, just the Preamble. But I have read through pretty much all of it at one point or another.

And yes, Giuliani is liberal about some stuff, but as far as I can see he's the only Republican who has half a brain in his head. Maybe he "sounds liberal" but we really won't know how he performs until hes sitting on his rump in office. George W. Bush was supposed to be a hardcore conservative when he was elected... Ha...

Personally none of the candidates really have an agenda I like that fits for Iraq, because at this point the only plans I want to see for that country involve a nuclear holocaust throughout the Middle East.
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Naoko
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A nuclear holocaust isn't possible unless you want to get America really screwed over. We nuke them like that, and we pay - dearly. The UN would have us up on trial like it was Nuremberg. Not a good idea.

Not to mention the moral part of that - why would we just go and kill them all like that? War is bad enough, but killing everyone like that is just... We CAN'T do that.
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LollyWolly
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Cranky
The UN can go suck an egg... They tomato me off so much.
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Panther III
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Truthfully, the UN has no power whatsoever, especially without the USA. No one would really do anything about us nuking the middle east.
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Naoko
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We have a lot of power, yes, but let's not go getting headstrong and acting like we control the world... The other countries can stand in if they must. We're very powerful, but I highly doubt everyone else would just allow us to go all Hitler-ish like that.
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Ginnoir
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AkA 3nigmax
truthfully they may try to prevent us if we ever tried. but we are to powerful, we have enough nukes to lay waste to anyone who stood up to us. but i doubt the US would ever try that
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Naoko
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If we lay waste to anyone who stands up to us, we're going to be sort of screwed. Nuking the middle east would be bad enough on our economy. If we nuked any European country, or some very important Asian countries, we'd be screwed. We depend on a lot of those countries for economic purposes and we can't support ourselves without them. (ESPECIALLY China.)
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LollyWolly
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Cranky
Well rather than nuking China we should just nuke Wal-Mart. Same effect with less casualties...
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(B)
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Chu Chu
LollyWolly
Feb 22 2007, 05:31 PM
...the only plans I want to see for that country involve a nuclear holocaust throughout the Middle East.

If that is really how you feel, then you are 0% American, sir, and you represent the attitude that makes the planet dislike us so much. Furthermore, perhaps you should read that constitution a little more, as it should apply not just to us, but to the citizens of Earth.

Now, to avoid the inevitable (and quite ignorant) "B hates teh AmericaZORZ!!1!" comments, let me preface my following comments with this: I love America. I am a tried-and-true, blue-collar-raised, handshake is a contract American, and always will be.

That said, this country has fallen very far from what our original ideals were, to a point of near-embarrassing levels. This country was founded on liberty, justice, equality, all of which were born out of our forefathers' oppression. We established ourselves as a separate entity, free from the shackles of a governing body that cared less about our well-being, and more about their own. Since then, we have become the oppressor. Ignoring that fact is simply inexcusable, and is why America is looked upon as the pinnacle of hypocrisy in the World.

What gives us the right to determine, against the popular opinion of the overwhelming majority of humans, what is "right" and what is "evil"? If you were in a room filled with 1,000 people, would you think highly of a group of 45 bullying around the others, simply because they have better guns? That's what we have become - a nation guided by our own ideals, with no regard at all to the well being, wishes and thoughts of our fellow humans. Does that sound familiar?

This attitude of "let's just nuke the bastards" is a perfect example of why we are hated so much. And, no, its not because we have freedom that the "terrorists" hate us, but rather what we do with that freedom. With great freedom comes great responsibility. Corny? Perhaps. True? Absolutely. Okay, that said, let's move on and away from the idiotic and barbaric "kill 'em all if they're brown/yellow/etc" mentality.

Now, to those that think we are the most powerful military entity in the World: think again. Not only are there more ferocious armies in the World, but you'd be surprised how quickly some of them would assemble themselves with other like-minded nations, given the opportunity. We could quite literally be completely destroyed with the right misstep, and anyone who thinks otherwise is quite ignorant.
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Ginnoir
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i agree with most of what you said B, but i found one thing i didnt agree with.
B
 
This country was founded on liberty, justice, equality, all of which were born out of our forefathers' oppression.


Thats actually far from the truth.
If you study the revolution and the beginning of our country in depth, you would find that our founders were just as corrupt as we are. The men treated their women like **** and refused to do things that were considered "a womans job", they drank alcohol in amounts near what we do nowadays, they still used torture and some of their "methods" were unbelievably cruel, and while they were writing about how "all men are created equal" they each held numerous slaves. So our founders werent exactly respectable people, even if their overall intentions were.
Basically what im getting at, is that the US hasnt changed at all from the time we were founded. We are still just as corrupt as we have always been, we just have better toys and methods with which to carry out our corruption.
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Naoko
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3NiGmA
Feb 23 2007, 04:48 PM

If you study the revolution and the beginning of our country in depth, you would find that our founders were just as corrupt as we are.

We realize that, but times have changed, and we should change, too. Some of our forefathers were like that, and that is the time they lived in. My great great grandfather hated black people, but guess what? That was the time he lived in. Things change, and we must interpret the Constitution by what it says and means today: "All men (meaning HUMANS) are created equal." And that's in the entire world, not just America. It says all men (humans), not all Americans.

And actually, not ALL of the forefathers were like that, although a lot were. You can't expect them to be totally righteous in today's eyes: things just weren't like that in those times.

And B isn't totally wrong, either. Although the "all men were created equal" originally only applied to white property-owning males, it was still founded on those principles and for those reasons. We were freed from quite a bit of oppression, especially religious oppression. The problem is, in those times, racism and sexism was a common thing, and it was "normal" for them. People just saw things in a different light back then. Try to see it from their point of view, they didn't see that they were off about some of those things... We've wisened up since then, but we can't throw away our founding documents.

All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator by certain unalienable rights: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. (These rights are actually based on principles by the English John Locke, who I believe based them off of Hobbes... Except they replaced Locke's "property" with "pursuit of happiness.")
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Game Freak
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I at least know that lol we studied the origins of the Constitution
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Panther III
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Naoko
Feb 22 2007, 06:53 PM
We have a lot of power, yes, but let's not go getting headstrong and acting like we control the world... The other countries can stand in if they must. We're very powerful, but I highly doubt everyone else would just allow us to go all Hitler-ish like that.

What could they do? The worst they can do really without pissing us off too much is setting up embargoes against us. Which they can't do without hurting themselves.
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Naoko
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I, THE GREAT PAPYRUS
Panther III
Feb 24 2007, 09:15 AM

What could they do? The worst they can do really without pissing us off too much is setting up embargoes against us. Which they can't do without hurting themselves.

What, so you think the US could just control the world? We have a lot of power, but like I said, let's not get all headstrong. Remember the Romans - just because someone has a lot of power doesn't mean they can control everything. If we don't watch ourselves we could really screw ourselves over.

Imagine if China temporarily embargo'd us or something. It'd hurt both of us, but just think how that would paralyze us.
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Kikyo
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Octorok
Pantha. ^_^
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Panther III
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Naoko
Feb 24 2007, 04:12 PM
Panther III
Feb 24 2007, 09:15 AM

What could they do? The worst they can do really without pissing us off too much is setting up embargoes against us. Which they can't do without hurting themselves.

What, so you think the US could just control the world? We have a lot of power, but like I said, let's not get all headstrong. Remember the Romans - just because someone has a lot of power doesn't mean they can control everything. If we don't watch ourselves we could really screw ourselves over.

Imagine if China temporarily embargo'd us or something. It'd hurt both of us, but just think how that would paralyze us.

From the CIA World Factbook

United States Imports — partners:
Canada 17%, China 13.8%, Mexico 10.3%, Japan 8.7%, Germany 5.2%

China Exports — partners:
US 21.1%, Hong Kong 17%, Japan 12.4%, South Korea 4.7%, Germany 4% (2004)

It would hurt them more. Even if a country doesn't lke what another is doing, they wouldn't jeopardize their own economy over it.

And thanks for the vote Kikyo! =)
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(B)
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Chu Chu
I believe that information is quite out of date, as I know that Japanese imports into the US are at an all-time high (around 13-14%, IIRC), with Honda and Toyota leading the surge. (Which sort of flies in the faces of those who jutified their Japanese vehicle purchase with the ever-BS-laden: "but they have plants in the US, so its American made" argument.)

EDITED to add import quantity.
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