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Veterans Cemeteries Ban Flag- Folding Ceremony
Topic Started: Oct 26 2007, 11:28 AM (242 Views)
Sunshine
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MARNIE -- DID YOU SEE THIS???????? AND IF SO -- WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?????????
Veterans Cemeteries Ban Flag-Folding Ceremony


(AP) RIVERSIDE Flag-folding recitations by Memorial Honor Detail volunteers are now banned at the nation's 125 veterans graveyards because of a complaint about the ceremony at Riverside National Cemetery.

During thousands of military burials, the volunteers have folded the American flag 13 times and recited the significance of every fold to survivors.

The first fold represents life, the second a belief in eternal life, and so on.

The complaint revolved around the narration in the 11th fold, which celebrates Jewish war veterans and "glorifies the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob."

The National Cemetery Administration then decided to ban the entire recital at all national cemeteries. Details of the complaint weren't disclosed.

Administration spokesman Mike Nacincik says the new policy outlined in a September 27th memorandum is aimed at creating uniform services throughout the military graveyard system.

Veterans and honor detail volunteers like Rees Lloyd are furious.

Complains Lloyd: "That the actions of one disgruntled, whining, narcissistic and intolerant individual is preventing veterans from getting the honors they deserve is truly an outrage."


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Sunshine
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A Marine Friend of mine sent this article. It is more detailed.


Flag-folding recitation banned at veterans cemeteries nationwide
Riverside Press Enterprise ^ | October 24, 2007 | Joe Vargo

Posted on 10/25/2007 6:57:48 AM PDT by Watershed


Through thousands of military burials, Memorial Honor Detail volunteers at Riverside National Cemetery have folded the American flag 13 times and recited the significance of every fold to survivors of those being laid to rest.

The first fold, a narrator tells relatives, represents life, the second a belief in eternal life.

The 11th fold celebrates Jewish war veterans and "glorifies the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob."

A single complaint lodged against the words for the 11th fold recently prompted the National Cemetery Administration to ban the entire recital at all 125 national cemeteries.

A spokesman in Washington said the complaint originated from someone who witnessed the ceremony at Riverside National but would provide no other details and declined to release the directive banning the flag-folding recital, saying it was "an internal working document not meant for public distribution."

Veterans are furious. Story continues below Joe Vargo / The Press-Enterprise The recitation of the 13 folds of the U.S. flag can no longer be made at national cemeteries. Veterans and honor detail volunteers, such as Bobby Castillo, 85, left, and Rees Lloyd, 59, are furious.

"That the actions of one disgruntled, whining, narcissistic and intolerant individual is preventing veterans from getting the honors they deserve is truly an outrage," said Rees Lloyd, 59, a Vietnam-era veteran and Memorial Honor Detail volunteer. "This is another attempt by secularist fanatics to cleanse any reference to God."

World War II Navy sailor Bobby Castillo, 85, another member of Memorial Honor Detail 12, called the federal decision "a slap in the face to every veteran."

"When we got back from the war, we didn't ask for a whole lot," said Castillo, who was wounded in 1944 as he supported the Allied landings in France. "We just want to give our veterans the respect they deserve. No one has ever complained to us about it. I just don't understand."

The pair, part of a team that has performed military honors at more than 1,400 services, said they were preparing to read the flag-folding remarks when workers in a staff car came up to them and stopped them.

Charlie Waters, parliamentarian for the American Legion of California, said he's advising memorial honor details to ignore the edict, even if it means being kicked out of cemeteries.

"This is nuts," Waters, a Korean War veteran, said in a telephone interview from Fresno. "There are 26 million veterans in this country and they're not going to take us all to prison."

Washington's Explanation

Mike Nacincik, the spokesman for the National Cemetery Administration, said the new policy, which was outlined in a Sept. 27 memo, is aimed at creating uniform services throughout the military graveyard system.

He said the 13-fold recital is not part of the U.S. Flag Code and is not government approved. After the complaint made its way through government channels, Steve Muro, director of field operations, wrote the new policy.

Nacincik said that while the flag-folding narrative includes references to God that the government does not endorse, the main reason for the new rules is uniformity.

"We are looking at consistency," Nacincik said. "We think that's important."

As for comments that the edict is an attack on religious beliefs, Nacincik said, "People are going to have their own views on that."

He said the flag-folding narrative can be read but only if families make arrangements on their own and do not use cemetery workers, which include volunteers. The U.S. government owns Riverside National, the most active national cemetery in the country with more than 8,000 burials of veterans and immediate family members each year.

A Jewish Perspective

Rabbi Yitzhak Miller, of Riverside's Temple Beth El, said he understands the government's decision to ban the recitation but believes it is a quick solution to a complex issue.

"It is a perfect example of government choosing to ignore religion in order to avoid offending some religions," Miller said. "To me, ignoring religion in general is just as problematic as endorsing any one religion."

Miller said the 11th fold, and the 12th fold, which refers to the Christian Trinity -- "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost -- amounts to an endorsement of Judaism and Christianity. He said he would like to see a reference to "God as we understand God" mentioned in the ritual but without endorsing any specific tradition.

"To acknowledge those two without acknowledging others denigrates the patriotic men and women of other faiths who serve our country," he said.

Family Wishes

Lloyd and Castillo said they always speak to families before providing military honors to their loved ones. Honors include a rifle salute, the playing of taps and the folding of the flag. Some families don't want any honors; others decline specific parts of the ceremony. Those wishes are paramount and are always respected.

Lloyd said the 16 members of the Memorial Honor Detail he serves on have distributed hundreds of copies of the script they recite while folding the flag. They've received dozens of letters thanking them, and several mention in particular the flag-folding recitation. But now presenting families that memento isn't allowed under the directive.

Lloyd, a member of the state American Legion, said he knows Riverside National Cemetery workers are just obeying orders. The real battle is with Washington.

"We're going to fight this tooth and nail, hammer and boot," he said




!
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Almtnman
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An American Legion commander in California says he and other veterans will defy a newly imposed ban on flag-folding recitations that include references to God.

During thousands of military burials, Veterans Administration employees and volunteers have folded the American flag 13 times and recited the significance of every fold to survivors. The fourth fold, for example, refers to God's "divine guidance." The 11th fold glorifies "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." And the 12th fold glorifies "God the Father, the Son and Holy Ghost." Now the National Cemetery Association has made a decision to ban flag-folding recitations by VA employees and volunteers at all 125 national cemeteries -- all because of one complaint about a ceremony at Riverside National Cemetery in California that included a reference to God.

Rees Lloyd is director of the California Defense of Veterans Memorials Project and part of a 16-member detail that has performed military honors at more than 1,400 services. He says veterans -- and in particular, American Legionnaires -- are outraged by the ban.

"It's outrageous," he says bluntly. "These are decisions that should be made by the families of our deceased veteran comrades and not by Washington bureaucrats -- and most certainly not by any narcissistic, disaffected, offended atheist, agnostic, or any other [person] who is upset or offended by the word 'God' or a religious symbol which might offend his delicate sensibilities."

Lloyd vows that even if there are "a hundred-million offended atheists," he and other American Legionnaires will stand against the ban.

"We will defy this ban, pure and simple," he states. "If the families ask us to recite the flag-folding ceremony, we will abide by the wishes of the family -- not [by the wishes of] some bureaucrat sitting in an air-conditioned office in Washington, DC, or some lawyer wearing a diaper back there whose main mission in life is to protect his own behind instead of standing up for the American people and saying enough is enough."

Lloyd, who is a California civil rights attorney, says he and his allies at the Alliance Defense Fund are considering their legal options.
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Duke
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Here is a link on the story and comments by folks about it.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1916928/posts

I'll stand firmly with folks to have the right to have the recitations said, if they want it.

All the complainer or others would have had to do is say; no, thank you.

It moooore that clear that they want to FORCE their hatred on everyone else!

I read one comment that used the term "Christaphobe", you know like in comparing what leftists use; terms like "Homophobe", Islamophobe, etc., etc.

I think we face Americaphobes and Christaphobes too.

Prayer was taken away from school sports games at a location near me because someone complained about it being a Christian prayer.

The list of attacks go on and on and on against America's heritage.

As some of us know the attacks against the God of our fathers and America are relentless.

Now that rebellion against our American heritage shows itself yet again, the anti-Christ and even anti-Jewish attacks continue in this attacking the Flag recitation.

The military decision makers caved in also to the so called Wiccan religion and have now allowed the satanic pentagram to be put on the veteran's grave makers, headstones for those who request it.

America must return to its foundations or crumble into mess the anti-Christ, anti-American groups and individuals dump on us.

We must join in and see to it that those honorable people that will ignore the ban, are supported now and see to it that people's rights are restored, so they can get it offered to them and recitated or not as before.

This is a nation founded upon the Judeo-Christian ethic and that infuriates a lot of different kinds of people that are actually free because of that very foundation.

When I come back if the links to where we can help haven't been posted, I'll find and post some myself.

Thanks,

Duke
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greatwhiteelkhunter
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AMAZING!!!!!!!! Just amazing.............. :hammerhead:
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Sunshine
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I already contacted my senators and I also contacted Senator John Douglas and he e-mailed back and is looking into this . I wish Senator John Douglas was our senator. He really is a good man. He truly cares. I sent this to Miss Clairice at The Veterans Voice and she put it in The Veterans Voice for Nov. Amen.
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Almtnman
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Sunshine,Oct 27 2007
01:02 PM
I sent this to Miss Clairice at The Veterans Voice and she put it in The Veterans Voice for Nov. Amen.

I thought that she was going to send me a copy of the October issue since I was in it, but I never received a thing.
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STEVEN1
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And another voice from the minority telling the majority that GOD is a no-no. I wonder if the aclu was behind this, too. Sounds like something they would back.

The following is just my opinion:
I believe we were meant to have separation of church and state in a different meaning. I believe our founding fathers wanted to keep priests, bishops, cardinals, etc from being a major influence on the government and they didn't want one state sponsored religion. Weren't most of the monarchies in early Europe counseled by members of the clergy? Didn't they influence a lot of their decisions? Didn't Henry the Eighth start his own church and make it the official church of England? Weren't people persecuted for their religious beliefs?
Our beloved country was founded on religious freedom. Freedom to praise GOD no matter what religion you practiced. No fear of being persecuted or ridiculed or being forced into another religion. Our forefathers would be mortified if they were alive today. I wish they were so they could tell us the true meaning of the separation of church and state.
I think it doesn't mean no prayer in school, no public display of the 10 Commandments in or courthouses, no display of the Nativity on public lands, and so forth. I think it simply means keeping a religious leader from being the major influence on our President and from having one religion in this country we most follow.
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Sunshine
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Almtnman,Oct 27 2007
06:14 PM
Sunshine,Oct 27 2007
01:02 PM
I sent this to Miss Clairice at The Veterans Voice and she put it in The Veterans Voice for Nov. Amen.

I thought that she was going to send me a copy of the October issue since I was in it, but I never received a thing.

I talked to her today and she said she is going to get it out. She said it was still on her desk and she is sorry. She was getting the paper ready for print. She did not do it deliberately. I promise.
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Ali
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I would just like to know what's suddenly so 'wrong' with God in our daily ways of life? I know He's never going to ignore us.
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Ali,Oct 27 2007
08:46 PM
I would just like to know what's suddenly so 'wrong' with God in our daily ways of life? I know He's never going to ignore us.

The dumb axse liberals want people to think they are God. Go to hell you dumb liberals and moonbats. Go hide in a cave and never come out . :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2: :gun2:
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Almtnman
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Now the National Park Service has got into the act.

Federal government strips "God" from the Washington Monument
National monument no longer references God


The National Park Service, a branch of the federal government, has joined the Veterans Administration in establishing anti-Christian bigotry as public policy. The NPS has censored “God” from a key display of America's Christian heritage in Washington.

The reference is an engraving of "Laus Deo," which is Latin for "Praise be to God," on the east side of the 100-ounce aluminum cap atop of the Washington Monument.
Since the actual inscription on the cap is unviewable atop the 555-foot stone column, the NPS created a replica which is on display in the white-colored obelisk of marble, granite and sandstone.

Now “God” has been removed from the plaque containing information about the Washington Monument. In 2000 the plaque read:

APEX OF THE MONUMENT Reproduction The builders searched for an appropriate metal for the apex that would not tarnish and would act as a lightning rod. They chose one of the rarest metals of the time, aluminum. The casting was inscribed with the phrase, Laus Deo, (Praise be to God).

The NPS censored the last sentence from the latest plaque, which now reads:
CAP OF THE MONUMENT Reproduction The builders searched for appropriate metal for the cap that would not tarnish and would act as a lightning rod. They chose one of the rarest metals of the time – aluminum.

In addition, the replica of the cap which is in the monument has been positioned so close to the wall that the wording “Laus Deo” cannot be read. Prior to the censorship by the NPS, the replica wording could be read.

It was the third time in just the past few weeks that an agency of the federal government has banned the use of “God.” First was the Architect of the Capitol banning religious references when issuing flag certificates. That ruling was later rescinded. Next came the Veterans Administration censoring religious references in the script used to describe each fold of the flag at 125 national cemeteries. That censoring came after only one person complained.

Because of the NPS censorship, children and other visitors to the monument now have no way to know that the words, 'Laus Deo,' ('Praise be to God'), are inscribed on the original cap atop the monument! This censoring of God will help establish anti-Christian bigotry into federal law.

Take Action
• Send President Bush an email asking that he rescind this anti-Christian censorship by the National Park Service. Your email will also go to the Secretary of the Interior and the NPS Director.

• Please forward this to your friends and family and urge them to take action.
Click Here to Send Your Letter Now!
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Sunshine
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Furor After Flag-Folding Ceremony Pulled From Cemeteries

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,306186,00.html
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VA Clarifies Policy on Flag-Folding Recitations> "13-Fold"Ceremony, Other Scripts Approved> WASHINGTON (October 30, 2007) -- To ensure burial services at the 125> national cemeteries operated by the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)> reflect the wishes of veterans and their families, VA officials have> clarified the Department's policy about recitations made while the U.S.> flag is folded at the gravesite of a veteran.> > "Honoring the burial wishes of veterans is one of the highest> commitments for the men and women of VA," said William F. Tuerk, VA's> Under Secretary for Memorial Affairs. "A family may request the> recitation of words to accompany the meaningful presentation of the> American flag as we honor the dedication and sacrifice of their loved> ones."> Traditional gravesite military funeral honors include the silent folding> and presentation of an American flag, a 21-gun rifle salute, and the> playing of "Taps."> > The clarification includes the following:> * Volunteer honor guards are authorized to read the so-called> "13-fold" flag recitation or any comparable script;> * Survivors of the deceased need to provide material and request> it be read by the volunteer honor guards; and > * Volunteer honor guards will accept requests for recitations that> reflect any or no religious traditions, on an equal basis.> > Veterans with a discharge other than dishonorable, their spouses and> eligible dependent children can be buried in a national cemetery. Other> burial benefits available for all eligible veterans, regardless of> whether they are buried in a national cemetery or a private cemetery,> include a burial flag, a Presidential Memorial Certificate and a> government headstone or marker. > > >
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Almtnman
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Your Efforts Lead to Victories

Several campaigns successful because you cared enough to get involved

Thanks to your efforts, we are making a difference in the culture war. Below are updates to our October campaigns:

Federal government bans flag-folding recitations following complaint

According to ONENEWSNOW.COM (read article) the Veterans Affairs Department has changed its directive banning the use of a religious recitation at flag-folding ceremonies. A VA spokeswoman now says volunteer honor guards may recite any text requested by next of kin.

Federal government strips "God" from the Washington Monument
ONENEWSNOW.COM In response (read article) to public protest, the National Park Service today told ONENEWSNOW.COM it is rebuilding the display of the replica of the cap on the Washington Monument so that all four sides will be visible to the public, including the "Laus Deo" Latin inscription meaning "Praise be to God."



Architect of the Capitol
According to U.S. Representative Marilyn Musgrave, our nation’s legislators are now prohibited from using references to God in certificates of authenticity accompanying flags flown over the Capitol and bought by constituents. Such references include: "under God" in the pledge, "God bless you," or "in the year of our Lord, 2007." Never before has this official prohibition been leveled.

Architect of the Capitol Steven Ayers said he has removed the words because reference to God and the Lord may offend some Americans. He now prohibits them from being placed on official documents such as flag certificates.

As a result of your good actions, the Architect has revised its policy to include references to "God."


Congressman Pete Stark
Here are Congressman Stark’s comments made Thursday, Oct. 18, on the floor of the House of Representatives: “You don't have money to fund the war or children. But you're going to spend it to blow up innocent people if we can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the President's amusement.”


Congressman Stark has now apologized on the House floor after pressure from the American people. Rep. Pete Stark Apologizes For Suggesting Bush Enjoys Troop Deaths in Iraq

So there you have it, the American people spoke loud and clear and their words were heard and changes were placed back like they were before.
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Duke
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AMM,

That is the post we all were looking for and I know it did your heart good to post it.

smiley-patriotic-flag-wave

You and most of us have come to the knowledge that the anti-God, anti-American, bunch never stop their attacks on America's very foundation.

I deeply hunger for the time when we get enough of the true to America people in public offices that they will simply tell the attackers that they will no longer bow to such attacks, so the good people of this country can devote themselves to doing the things that keep this country strong morally and fiscally without having to battle such anti-American attacks from within.

Until then we must never give up the battle to save America from the decay those folks desire for this country.

I'm honored to be here with folks that love and respect Old Glory and all she stands for,

Duke


AMM, I thank you also for posting the link to AFA, God bless you and all for making the difference in these cases and many more.-Duke
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Almtnman
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In response to THIS post, here's an email reply that I received just today after I had sent an email last week.

Thank you for your recent e-mail concerning the replica of the Washington Monument capstone and the associated interpretive panel.

The replica capstone was on display in a tent on the National Mall during recent renovation of the Monument. When it was moved inside the Monument, it was placed against the wall. While the change in placement and wording was never intended to offend anyone, we understand why some visitors might feel otherwise.

We made a mistake and we are fixing it.

The capstone is being moved away from the wall so that visitors will be able to read the engravings on all four sides.

In addition, we will install interpretive panels with the exact language found on all sides of the capstone in letters easy to read. These panels will include the phrase “Laus Deo” (Praise be to God – in Latin).

I hope this is an acceptable solution. If you were personally offended, please accept our sincere apology.

And remember to Experience your America in the National Parks often.

David Barna
Chief of Public Affairs
National Park Service
Washington, DC
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Duke
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Almtnman,

I thank you for keeping us up to date.

Duke
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