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Flags of Our Fathers; It's some of the little things
Topic Started: Jan 25 2007, 11:38 AM (274 Views)
jaytalker
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Much of the film's story disturbed me but many of the little lines in the story just won't let me go.

"America was tired of war after four years."

What if America (we) didn't have a choice?


A picture won WWII, a picture lost Vietnam.

"Oh, we pretended we were winning but as soon as that picture of that Vietnamese officer blowing out the brains of that prisoner hit the papers over here...the war was lost."

It's fairly obvious that point has been reached in the current war. Just which one of the thousands of news reports, pictures or supposed expert analysis was the point?

Although I have many more points and lines that haunt my thoughts about "Flags of Our Fathers" let me try to put what troubles me together in these two instances.

America is basically a pacifist nation. Although to many that might seem bad, but with the expertise now in the way to sway a publics perception of things (a picture won WWII...another picture lost Vietnam) maybe it is better to be "pacifist" in nature than be always having a "chip on our shoulders" and looking for a fight. In the past one thing has allowed America to be "slow on the trigger" so to speak...our oceans barrier!

Am I being too paranoid in thinking that it is possible that these oceans no longer give us the luxury we once had? If America had become tired of war during WWII, is it possible for us to be so pacifist that we can not see a war that should be fought. A war that the enemy sees as their victory and does not want to stop? With Osama Bin Landin declaration of War on the United States and the Western culture, no white flag has been raised by them. Instead it appears that about 70% of Americans feel that our actions have been wrong and pulling our troops back is the only answer. The only one raising the white flag is us. In all wars there are the "spoils of war", what do we offer the victors?

Yes I know the mantra that "Saddam didn't pull of 9-11" but that doesn't change where we are now. It is evident that much of the war in Iraq is being caused by the same enemies or the Allies of those original enemies (Iran, Syria...N Korea). Whether Al Qaeda actually plants the IEDs that blow up our soldiers or Iraqi citizens the actions are supported by them and instigated in many cases by them as a peacefull free Iraq is not in their best interests.

What if these enemies, whether they be called Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas decide that that we are the enemy to them (by the way they have already stated that)? Will we fight a war, even if we have to or cease to exist as we are or have we become too tired of war?

With our "fair and balanced" media wanting to blast any picture or story of the ugliness of war, it is easy to get tired of war. EVERY WAR HAS THEM, IT IS CALLED WAR FOR A REASON! WARS are meant to be the last action when all else has failed. It is kill or be killed, no rules make it right, humaine or just but at one time our people saw something that to them was worst.

Try to ask those 30 million who died under Stalin in the dark cells, ask the Iraqi who were murdered by Saddam, ask the 6 million jews murdered under Hitler's quest for world domination, ask any of the victims of those that woke up one day with dreams of power and quit seeing people as people but enemies to be slaughtered. You won't find them to speak their warnings now, only what remains of them.

At one time we had barriers who would keep those from our shores. But now I don't believe we really have anything that is considered by us to be worth fighting a war for.

If I am too tired of war, could I also be too tired of freedom?

jaytalker


If any care to add their thoughts about this or reflections about the film "Flags of Our Fathers" I would be interested in reading those thoughts.

There are other parts that I think were thought provoking toward our time now and I might add them later.
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Hick
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Food for thought, food for thought.
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jaytalker
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"You are going to shaking hands with every politician. They won't donate a dime of their own money...."

What does that say about our political reps? After all it was only to get the money to beat the Japanese and end the war with total victory, but it wasn't enough to get any from their personal budgets, according to the scrip writter. Troublesome thought of what was seen as the "greatest generation" if it was true.

Today as fast as politicians switch from one side to another I have to just wonder if this was written was really painting today's politicians in that unfavorable light as it has been shown that half of politicians seemingly were routing for the other side for political purposes.

Then was the angle portrayed in the movie that pointed out how our soldiers were promised things that were nevered delivered, in fact it was shown as a person not even wanting to take the call of one of the soldiers over the phone.

Compare that even to today, as Gulf War vets do not get many breaks in getting a job after coming back, in some cases many are not using that service on their resume' as some think it hurts their chances in some places. Thanks should go out to those who do look for Gulf War vets for hiring and many encourage continued Guard and Reserve service in their employment. So much of the talk about how we are supporting our troops is a lot like soldiers who came home following WWII, saying we support our troops but don't ask me to prove it as I don't support the war. Hey, it only the men and women who put their lives on the line.

Just a couple more thoughts of things that struck me as I watched "Flags of Our Fathers".

jaytalker

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GRITS
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Clint Eastwood was never on a battlefield, never got shot at or shot at an enemy.

Like those who have NEVER BTDT he makes it up as he goes along and knows nothing about the subject but hearsay from others.

The hardcore vets I've known all consider him a joke.

It was one thing when he made cowboy and cop movies (two other things he's never been) - at least they had some entertainment value.

As he entered dotage his movies got ever stupider, and these last two are the biggest mutts of the litter. He played the role until he was popular, then made a movie that skewered Vietnam vets when they were struggling to return to the World, and put out another that portrayed cops as stupid killers. Those are his true colors.

This is a wine sipping Hollywood cowboy who glams with the Beautiful People and got where he is by kissing their behinds. It's true he's good to his friends, but Clint Eastwood is totally full of crap everywhere else.


CHINA MUST BE DESTROYED
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USMCwife
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I'm not so sure we're talking about the same movies. There are two out there right now. One is Flags of Our Fathers and the other is Letters from Iwo Jima, which is the one Clint Eastwood is in.

SEMPER FI
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Toothless Dawg
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USMC Wife,

Both movies are directed by Clint Eastwood ... I believe the Iwo Jima movie has high ratings ... not sure about Flags ... but Netflix is releasing it to DVD on Feb 6.
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GRITS
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Both movies are about Iwo Jima - one from the US side and the other from the Jap side.

Aside from special effects neither imparts anything new except Eastwood's ever increasing liberal slop.

I doubt Ira Hayes would appreciate Eastwood's usage of him, but that's what you get from a parasite hack from Hollywood. The guy is a vampire - he should try Dracula movies they'd be something he knows.






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Toothless Dawg
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Grits,

Funny you mention Ira Hayes (and I haven't seen either movie yet). I have had that song about Ira Hayes running through my head since my post to USMC Wife.

Coincidence???? Or an angry indian that went off to war ... ???

For those who may not remember Ira Hayes, here are the lyrics as sung by Johnny Cash ...

Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Gather round me people there's a story I would tell
About a brave young Indian you should remember well
From the land of the Pima Indian
A proud and noble band
Who farmed the Phoenix valley in Arizona land

Down the ditches for a thousand years
The water grew Ira's peoples' crops
'Till the white man stole the water rights
And the sparklin' water stopped

Now Ira's folks were hungry
And their land grew crops of weeds
When war came, Ira volunteered
And forgot the white man's greed

[CHORUS:]
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

There they battled up Iwo Jima's hill,
Two hundred and fifty men
But only twenty-seven lived to walk back down again

And when the fight was over
And when Old Glory raised
Among the men who held it high
Was the Indian, Ira Hayes

[CHORUS:]
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Ira returned a hero
Celebrated through the land
He was wined and speeched and honored; Everybody shook his hand

But he was just a Pima Indian
No water, no crops, no chance
At home nobody cared what Ira'd done
And when did the Indians dance

[CHORUS:]
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Then Ira started drinkin' hard;
Jail was often his home
They'd let him raise the flag and lower it
like you'd throw a dog a bone!

He died drunk one mornin'
Alone in the land he fought to save
Two inches of water in a lonely ditch
Was a grave for Ira Hayes

[CHORUS:]
Call him drunken Ira Hayes
He won't answer anymore
Not the whiskey drinkin' Indian
Nor the Marine that went to war

Yeah, call him drunken Ira Hayes
But his land is just as dry
And his ghost is lyin' thirsty
In the ditch where Ira died
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GRITS
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Tony Curtis portrayed Ira Hayes Dawg.

Ira froze to death in a roadside ditch, but he sits at the right hand of God.
He was true to his People and his Corps but no amount of alcohol could dim the memory of the horrors he saw.

Anyone who uses that noble man for their own ends deserves hell.

Ira served his time there and is paid up with the Storekeeper. I have faith that God has healed his wounds and given him the peace he never knew among us.

In Memory of Ira Hayes, Congressional Medal of Honor
Semper Fidelis







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Almtnman
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I guess it's time I added a little story about Iwo Jima! smiley-patriotic-flag-wave

"A Tale of Six Boys"

Each year I am hired to go to Washington, DC, with the eighth grade class from Clinton, WI. where I grew up, to videotape their trip. I greatly enjoy visiting our nation's capitol, and each year I take some special memories back with me. This fall's trip was especially memorable.

On the last night of our trip, we stopped at the Iwo Jima memorial. This memorial is the largest bronze statue in the world and depicts one of the most famous photographs in history -- that of the six brave soldiers raising the American Flag at the top of a rocky hill on the island of Iwo Jima, Japan, during WW II.

Over one hundred students and chaperones piled off the buses and headed towards the memorial. I noticed a solitary figure at the base of the statue, and as I got closer he asked, "Where are you guys from?"

I told him that we were from Wisconsin. "Hey, I'm a cheese head, too! Come gather around, Cheese heads, and I will tell you a story."

(James Bradley just happened to be in Washington, DC, to speak at the memorial the following day. He was there that night to say good night to his dad, who has since passed away. He was just about to leave when he saw the buses pull up. I videotaped him as he spoke to us, and received his permission to share what he said from my videotape. It is one thing to tour the incredible monuments filled with history in Washington, D.C., but it is quite another to get the kind of insight we received that night).


When all had gathered around, he reverently began to speak. (Here are his words that night). "My name is James Bradley and I'm from Antigo, Wisconsin. My dad is on that statue, and I just wrote a book called "Flags of Our Fathers" which is #5 on the New York Times Best Seller list right now. It is the story of the six boys you see behind me.

"Six boys raised the flag. The first guy putting the pole in the ground is Harlon Block. Harlon was an all-state football player. He enlisted in the Marine Corps with all the senior members of his football team. They were off to play another type of game. A game called "War." But it didn't turn out to be a game.

Harlon, at the age of 21, died with his intestines in his hands. I don't say that to gross you out, I say that because there are generals who stand in front of this statue and talk about the glory of war. You guys need to know that most of the boys in Iwo Jima were 17, 18, and 19 years old.

(He pointed to the statue) "You see this next guy? That's Rene Gagnon from New Hampshire. If you took Rene's helmet off at the moment this photo was taken and looked in the webbing of that helmet, you would find a photograph. ...a photograph of his girlfriend. Rene put that in there for protection because he was scared. He was 18 years old. Boys won the battle of Iwo Jima. Boys. Not old men.

"The next guy here, the third guy in this tableau, was Sergeant Mike Strank. Mike is my hero. He was the hero of all these guys. They called him the "old man" because he was so old. He was already 24. When Mike would motivate his boys in training camp, he didn't say, 'Let's go kill some Japanese' or 'Let's die for our country.' He knew he was talking to little boys. Instead he would say, 'You do what I say, and I'll get you home to your mothers.'

"The last guy on this side of the statue is Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian from Arizona. Ira Hayes walked off Iwo Jima. He went into the White House with my dad. President Truman told him, 'You're a hero.' He told reporters, "How can I feel like a hero when 250 of my buddies hit the island with me and only 27 of us walked off alive?' So you take your class at school, 250 of you spending a year together having fun, doing everything together. Then all 250 of you hit the beach, but only 27 of your classmates walk off alive. That was Ira Hayes. He had images of horror in his mind. Ira Hayes died dead drunk, face down at the age of 32. ...ten years after this picture was taken.

"The next guy, going around the statue, is Franklin Sousley from Hilltop, Kentucky. A fun-lovin' hillbilly boy. Franklin died on Iwo Jima at the age of 19. When the telegram came to tell his mother that he was dead, it went to the Hilltop General Store. A barefoot boy ran that telegram up to his mother's farm. The neighbors could hear her scream all night and into the morning. The neighbors lived a quarter of a mile away.

"The next guy, as we continue to go around the statue, is my dad, John Bradley from Antigo, Wisconsin, where I was raised. My dad lived until 1994, but he would never give interviews. When Walter Cronkite's producers, or the New York Times would call, we were trained as little kids to say, 'No, I'm sorry, sir, my dad's not here. He is in Canada fishing. No, there is no phone there, sir. No, we don't know when he is coming back.' My dad never fished or even went to Canada. Usually, he was sitting there right at the table eating his Campbell's soup. But we had to tell the press that he was out fishing. He didn't want to talk to the press.

"You see, my dad didn't see himself as a hero. Everyone thinks these guys are heroes, 'cause they are in a photo and on a monument. My dad knew better. He was a medic. John Bradley from Wisconsin was a caregiver. In Iwo Jima he probably held over 200 boys as they died. And when boys died in Iwo Jima, they writhed and screamed in pain.

"When I was a little boy, my third grade teacher told me that my dad was a hero. When I went home and told my dad that, he looked at me and said, 'I want you always to remember that the heroes of Iwo Jima are the guys who did not come back. Did NOT come back.'

"So that's the story about six nice young boys. Three died on Iwo Jima, and three came back as national heroes. Overall, 7,000 boys died on Iwo Jima in the worst battle in the history of the Marine Corps. My voice is giving out, so I will end here. Thank you for your time."

Suddenly, the monument wasn't just a big old piece of metal with a flag sticking out of the top. It came to life before our eyes with the heartfelt words of a son who did indeed have a father who was a hero. Maybe not a hero for the reasons most people would believe, but a hero nonetheless.

We need to remember that God created this vast and glorious world for us to live in, freely, but also at great sacrifice. Let us never forget from the Revolutionary War to the Gulf War and all the wars in-between that sacrifice was made for our freedom. Remember to pray praises for this great country of ours and also pray for those still in murderous unrest around the world. STOP and THANK GOD for being alive and being free at someone else's sacrifice.
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ROCKY TOP
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Pacifist? Or peace through strength?

I believe in the latter.
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GRITS
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When I look at the Memorial all I can see are the hands reaching out.

The Hands of Men, instrument of God.



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jaytalker
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I can not defend Clint Eastwood or add to anything said about him. I will say I didn't see any part of the Iwo that I have other scources of where the story is portrayed wrongly or "hollywoodized" to liven it up as has been done many too many times.

I don't believe everyone in Ca is a left leaning liberal or everyone in the film business is either. It could be also pointed out that conservatism thought and liberalism take on a different hue in Ca. The deep rich blue of conservative thought is much lighter and a pinkish glow close to the psyhodelic pink that we associate with extreme liberal thought.

I did not start this thread to judge the film but to give some thoughts of what I see parallals today's. I was hopeing others who might have seen it or read the book or have related experiences might add their thoughts.

Movies such as "Flags" I do not rush out to see. I usually wait until I feel I can take them on, if they are supposed to be based on truth, I am hoping to see something the way it actually happened. I do not go these type films to be entertained but to learn.

Excellent addition Altm, thank you. Wow what luck to come up on the Memorial rigt as you and the class did!

Great discussion of the Ira Hayes story,Dawg. I really didn't see here where anything is put in to the detriment of this truely tragic figure that haunts our history. If you really try to disect the digalog about the Ira Hayes story in "Flags" I don't think the movie puts fault with Ira Hayes for his actions but with those characters around him. I think it actually portrays Ira Hayes as a heroic figure.

jaytalker
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GRITS
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I saw Eastwood on Letterman last night - Letterman did everything but stick his tongue in Eastwood's mouth.

Ira Hayes is sacred to the Corps - he is ours and we defend his honor.

For a punk like Eastwood to even mention his name dirties it. He doesn't rate it and never will, regardless of why he made these movies. Ira is one of our holy saints and we want lesser men to keep their traps shut when it comes to him.

Eastwood is not one of us and has no business talking about us in any way shape or form - if he was stupid enough to come among us and talk about our holy men like he has any idea about it at all someone would hammer his face shut. I think he is a Hollywood slut who dishonors us, even if he tries to kiss our asses.

That is my objection - something he will never understand.
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Almtnman
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jaytalker,Jan 27 2007
11:46 AM

Excellent addition Altm, thank you. Wow what luck to come up on the Memorial rigt as you and the class did!

Jaytalker, that wasn't me at the statue, that was James Bradley the man that wrote the book "Flags of our Fathers" and the son of John Bradley from Antigo, Wisconsin, one of the six young Marines that raised the flag.
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Toothless Dawg
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ROCKY TOP,Jan 27 2007
10:51 AM
Pacifist? Or peace through strength?

I believe in the latter.

There can be no other choice for a patriot. Its the same as asking slave or freeman.
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legitlinda
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Almtnman,Jan 27 2007
01:13 PM
jaytalker,Jan 27 2007
11:46 AM

Excellent addition Altm, thank you. Wow what luck to come up on the Memorial rigt as you and the class did!

Jaytalker, that wasn't me at the statue, that was James Bradley the man that wrote the book "Flags of our Fathers" and the son of John Bradley from Antigo, Wisconsin, one of the six young Marines that raised the flag.

What a great story and what luck to have it told by James Bradley.

Almntman, are you the one who took the kids to the memorial and wrote the story...I'm a little confused.
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Toothless Dawg,Jan 27 2007
05:33 PM
ROCKY TOP,Jan 27 2007
10:51 AM
Pacifist?  Or peace through strength?

I believe in the latter.

There can be no other choice for a patriot. Its the same as asking slave or freeman.

My wife and I were talking with her sister and her husband one day last year about one of her sons enlisting in the military.
She was mad at me for putting the notion in his head he has a wife and baby to take care of.

The truth of it was he had asked me about the Navy and I shared my expeirence's with him and that I wouldn't trade it for anything.

My last words to them were these.
I would rather be killed in battle so my wife and children could live in a free America than be alive and with them in a conquered America.
I know it sounds dramatic but it's my convection.

He didn't enlist. :flag-raise:
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Almtnman
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legitlinda,Jan 27 2007
05:54 PM

Almntman, are you the one who took the kids to the memorial and wrote the story...I'm a little confused.

Nope, not me, the story was by James Bradley, I just posted the info.
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GRITS
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Linda - Bradley is the son of one of the men in the Iwo Jima Memorial - this is an article he wrote that Mtnman reposted.
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