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| Communion; some churchs more, some less | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 7 2004, 08:35 AM (237 Views) | |
| karmasasha | Dec 7 2004, 08:35 AM Post #1 |
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I grew up attending a small Lutheran Church with a time table for babtism, 2 years of schooling in preparation for Confirmation and the abillity to take Communion. My church, Moe Lutheran of Roseau, Minnesota offered Communion every Sunday. Both bread and wine were given. Now in my adult years living in a suburb of Minneapolis/St paul I have been discouraged with how "large" and impersonal churches have become. I have not attended one church on a regular basis for some time. "trying out" different churchs on occassion, I am surprised to have so far only found Lutheran Churches offering communion once per month or a Catholic Church offering bread but not wine. I am mystified at this trend. I want to take both bread and wine every Sunday that I am able to attend church. I don't understand why this is happening? I firmly believe it necessary to have a complete "experience" as desired. (and that it is the churches responsibility to provide the opportunity.) Any ideas? |
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| Stacy | Dec 7 2004, 08:48 AM Post #2 |
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Growing up we took communion (both bread and wine) the first sunday of every month. We fasted that sunday. The church my husband and I just left, did communion as the pastor felt, with no rhyme or reason, and no warning so you could fast. I did not like that. In addition, he failed to make provisions for us downstairs teaching childrens church, so out of the last 10 times he served it, I got to participate ONCE. And that was only because one of the deacons took all the kids preschool as well as my age group, and gave up partaking in it so us ladies could. Shows you who was thinking about the sheep. Certainly not the one who should have. |
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| Pastor Charlie | Dec 7 2004, 08:57 AM Post #3 |
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All the non-denominational independant Christian Churches and the Churches of Christ do observe the communion each Sunday and they do not bar people who are from others churches to participate with them. Each is encouraged to examine their own conscience and to partake in memory of our Lord Jesus Christ being crucified for our sins. |
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| Admin | Dec 7 2004, 09:38 AM Post #4 |
Keeper of the Castle
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The Methodist Church's I have attended all my life have always had communion on the first Sunday of the month. We have the body of Christ and the blood of Christ. Communion is open to all who want to participate. Our ushers always make sure the people who are taking care of the children are given the opportunity to partake. |
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| OzarkPreacher | Dec 7 2004, 09:42 AM Post #5 |
Sir Lancelot
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You are right PC, we were in a independent Christian Church this past sunday and it is their custom to do this every sunday a.m. service. |
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| karmasasha | Dec 7 2004, 09:59 AM Post #6 |
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Thank you for your responses. Since we are cleansed of sin when we take communion and we, at least I, do not go a whole month without sinning it is disturbing to me for a church to only offer this once per month. I asked a Lutheran pastor about this awhile back and was told it took so much time and most people did not want service to last that long, hence it was offered only once per month. I told her if the members had been intructed in the importance of it perhaps they would think differently. That church went off of my list. I attended Catholic Church on and off with a man I was dating awhile back and asked him why not the wine. He said it was too expensive. Considering the wealth of the Catholic Church that was a turn off for me. I am hoping Fr. Mike will expound further on this subject. |
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| Stacy | Dec 7 2004, 10:02 AM Post #7 |
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Some one told of the church they went to were it was a HUGE church. They had the service and for anyone that wanted communion it was offered (bread and wine) in the back afterwards. If you didn't want to partake, you were free to go, if you did, a pray was said and it was served. I would think that would be a great way to solve the issue of the time. For expense most serve juice anyway! But for washing away of the sin, I was always taught it was a symbol. That we do it to remember what Jesus did for us, but that it in and of it's self did not wash us clean. |
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| PIAN0buff | Dec 7 2004, 10:03 AM Post #8 |
Wandering Minstrel
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Can you go a whole week without sinning? A whole day? An hour? |
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| karmasasha | Dec 7 2004, 10:10 AM Post #9 |
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Stacy, Communion in the Lutheran Church consists of a service partacipation and the acknowledgement that by taking the bread and wine one is washed of sin. As far as most churches use juice............I have been in Lutheran and Babtist and only wine was ever used. |
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| karmasasha | Dec 7 2004, 10:12 AM Post #10 |
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Isn't that all the more reason to have it offered as much as possible? |
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| Stacy | Dec 7 2004, 10:18 AM Post #11 |
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Of the churches I have attended all of them used grape juice. I have never attended a methodist church. But I wonder why it matters? I for one don't think it does. I think that it is a symbol of the sacrafice, so if we use bread or crackers, wine or juice, we get the same rememberance. We can not go without sinning. Some times we can be good for an hour or maybe even a whole day (I suppose if we are sick in bed asleep the whoel time?) But I still feel that it is symbolic. Therefore we use it to remind us of the sacrafice, but the act of communion does not in anyway absolve us of our sins. |
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| kiwi_too | Dec 7 2004, 10:33 AM Post #12 |
Sir Perceval, Ruler of the Realm
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I grew up Free Methodist in IL. We took communion once every three months. It was not for cleansing. It was for rememberance. The cleansing was upon admitting our sins to Christ (constant) and asking forgiveness. I was always taught that you should ask forgiveness of those sins before taking the bread and juice. This could be seconds before. It was a "get right with God" attitude and strengthening/refreshing during communion. The church I am in now, Baptist, in WA, has the same principles. Go figure. On top of that, I have always believed that if communion strengthens/refreshes your relationship with God than communion works for you.
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| PIAN0buff | Dec 7 2004, 10:36 AM Post #13 |
Wandering Minstrel
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For me personally, if communion was necessary for the forgiveness of my sins - I literally could do nothing all day, but take communion. |
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| Stacy | Dec 7 2004, 10:36 AM Post #14 |
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That was something I was taught. That you had to be right with God before hand. Isn't there a verse about that? What ever it takes for you to walk closer to God, I say go for it! For some it is easy to remember, for the rest of us, we take all the reminding we can get! |
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| Psycmeistr | Dec 7 2004, 10:45 AM Post #15 |
Keeper of the Realm
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Adherents to the Roman Catholic church believe in the real presence of Christ in Holy Communion, or the Eucharist; in the true transformation of bread and wine into literally the body and blood of Christ, as was done at the Last Supper. In the Catholic church, one can take communion if one has a "venial" (non-grievous) sin, such as a white lie, an omission, etc., One is not allowed to take Communion if one has committed a "mortal" sin (i.e., adultery, blasphemy, etc.) without having made amends for that mortal sin via the sacrament of Reconciliation. Also, one is asked to fast before taking communion for at least one hour before. Due to the very sacred nature we hold this sacrament (i.e., its literally being Christ's body and blood), we ask those who are not adherents to this faith to not partake in the Eucharist, unless they also believe in their hearts that this is truly the case. |
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| Motobu | Dec 7 2004, 10:53 AM Post #16 |
Baroness of Gundi, Guard of the Realm
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I am a member of a United Methodist Church. We practice open Communion. We don't hold the opinion that the bread and water become the actual body and blood of Christ. We celebrate Communion one the first Sunday of the month and at special services like Maundy Thursday. I remember, growing up in the Catholic church, the priest saying something about Communion being used to cleanse our sins. I suppose this is just another way the two denominations differ. We (Methodists) see Communion as : 1. A reminder.... and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "this is my body, which is for you; eat it in rememberance of me. 2. A Symbol... "In the same way, He took the cup, saying " this cup is the new Covenant in my blood; drink it to remember me." 3. A Statement of Faith... "For whenever you eat the bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes back." Now in preparation for the Lord's Supper we are asked to do a number of things... Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A person ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup" [/u] 1 Cor. 11:27-28 By.... 1 Self-Examination 1 Cor. 11:27 2 Confession of Sins 1 John 1:9 3. Recommitment Rom 12:1 4 Restoring Relationships Matt. 5: 23-24 Jesus never said when or how often believers should observe The Lord's SUpper. We (Methodists) share Communion only once a month because we want to avoid the complasency that can come about if we partake everyweek without being worthy. We also use grape juice but not for the finacial reasons stated. We realize that some of our flock are recovering alcoholics and we don't want those people not sharing in that important part of Communion because they can't. I know that may seem silly to some, but it is done out of respect and gentility. I am very sorry K, that you left your church because you felt it was too impersonal. However, I don't necessarily feel one should avoid a particular church because of it's size. Some large congregations have gathered their members because they are extremely personal. It is the nature of the congregation, not it's size that determines its ability to hold the members of its family. A church is a fellowship and top priority of a fellowship is harmony and unity. "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace" Eph 4:3 Any attitude within the congregation that causes disunity is sin. I have about 15 verses I can think of to display this. Just a couple : Colossians 3:15, Philippians 4:2. Any good congregational structure promotes unity and downplays division. The Church is a family, if you don't feel like an active, useful, wanted member of your church family you should search first within yourself and make sure you are putting forth the effort. If you believe in your heart that you are, and still you don't feel familial with your church then the fault may lie with the Pastor. "A pastor must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. If anyone does not know how to manage his family, how can he take care of God's church?" 1 Tim. 3:4-5 I could go on further but I've already gone past rambling. Peace be with you all.
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| kiwi_too | Dec 7 2004, 10:57 AM Post #17 |
Sir Perceval, Ruler of the Realm
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Stacy, I look at thess verses as a guide for me.
They are not directed at communion but since I have always viewed communion as offering myself, renewed, back to God, I feel that I must clean my house before making myself a hypocrit in the offering of myself. Psyc, We have always held that communion is for the believer only. Always precluded with, "This is for those that have a relationship with our Lord, Jesus Christ. It is not just for members, all may partake that share in the salvation provided by the sacrifice of our Lord. Parents must make the decision for your childrens as to whether they are capable of understanding and having accepted the Lords gift." It needs to be sacred and specific. It is in rememberance of the greatest gift I will ever receive. |
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| kiwi_too | Dec 7 2004, 10:58 AM Post #18 |
Sir Perceval, Ruler of the Realm
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Thank you. Great verses. |
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| Stacy | Dec 7 2004, 11:06 AM Post #19 |
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Motobu! Please by all means ramble on! I think we all agree that this is for the believer only, I think Psyc may have meant more along the lines of if you aren't catholic don't take it, unless you agree that it really is the body/blood of christ! |
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| Pastor Charlie | Dec 7 2004, 12:44 PM Post #20 |
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I looked through my notes in my "Thought for Today" devotion and found these three given on their respective dates. I share them here 12-15-02 "This do in remembrance of me." Luke 22:19 In giving His life as the only acceptable sacrifice for sin, Jesus instituted the memorial; the breaking of bread and drinking the fruit of the vine, to His death. Following the example and teaching of His disciples we understand they met upon the first day of each week for worship, which included, fellowship, singing, giving, preaching, teaching, and keeping the memorial to Jesus' death by eating bread and drinking the fruit of the vine. This is validated by the Scriptures. Even during the lives of the first Christians it is seen that they were prone to abuse the memorial. However they were taught to correct themselves to avoid the abuse. The problem was not in the memorial but in the worshipper. Over the years some have sought to avoid the abuse, of the memorial, by removing the memorial from the worship service. They think that because of the frequency of weekly observance it becomes too common and loses it's meaning. This seems to be the position of much of Christianity today. Just as one does not grow stronger, but rather weaker, by missing the food for the body neither does one grow stronger, but weaker, by missing the food for the soul. How can one remember Jesus more by keeping His memorial less often? How is one inclined to be more grateful for Jesus' sacrifice for their sins by being reminded less often of what He did for them? For those who choose not to keep the memorial, rather than repenting of the sin which condemns them, to whom do they offer worship? God never intended for men to change His Word to accommodate their sins. The prophet Ezekiel in chapter 18 records the word of God as saying that the children are not to be punished for the sins of their fathers and the fathers are not to be punished for the sins of their children, but the person who sins will die. However God promises the wicked one who sins if he will turn from all his sins and observe all His statutes and practice justice and righteousness he shall live. Suppose this could have any bearing upon the keeping of the memorial of Jesus. Just because those who are in control of a particular church do not include weekly observance of Jesus' memorial does that free all who attend from their own responsibility to God? There is an old saying, "every tub sets upon its own bottom." Grace and Peace....Billy 5-30-04 "And having taken some bread, when He had given thanks, He broke it, and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.' And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.'" Luke 22:19-20 NASB When all the Scriptures having to do with the Memorial to Jesus' death are considered, i.e. Matthew 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Acts 20:7, I Corinthians, et. al. It is easily seen that God has given the one and only symbol, reminder, Memorial needed in devotion to Him. In the first of the Ten Commandments that God gave through Moses it is recorded that all others are rejected. There are numerous memorials in the Scriptures but they relate to other occasions. The Lord table is a Memorial to God Himself in the person of Jesus His Son reminding the world of the sacrifice paid for forgiveness of sins. This is the greatest Memorial the world has ever seen. As it is with all other things that mankind has gotten a hand into even the Lord Memorial has been subjected to man's tampering. When one reads the above listed Scriptures it is readily seen by the humble and seeking repentant believer that Jesus disciples kept the Memorial in remembrance of Jesus crucifixion by gathering on the first day of each week to partake. Paul the apostle writes the church to remind them about the proper manner in which they each should partake. Although they were certainly unworthy subjects they could partake if they did so in a worthy manner giving thought and prayer to why they did so. Thinking about Jesus. As a follower of Jesus is it your habit to follow church tradition which has been determined by man or the instructions of the Scripture? There is a difference. "For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:6-8 Grace and Peace....Billy 8-15-04 "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." Luke 22:19-20 KJV In the above verse Jesus established the memorial to His death. "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat; this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." I Corinthians 11:23-25 In this Scripture Paul the apostle reminds the Christians at Corinth the reason Jesus established His memorial. Since the resurrection of Jesus, Christians have been gathering upon the first day of each week to keep the memorial that He established in remembrance of His death for their sins. Memorials come in a multitude of designs. The memorial of Jesus He established from two items left over from the Passover memorial that God had given to Israel; remembering the passing over of the death angel during their enslavement in Egypt. Jesus, with His disciples, having finished with the Passover feast took some bread and gave thanks to the Father in heaven and then broke it and asked them to keep it as a memorial to the breaking of His body. Next He took some of the fruit of the vine and again giving thanks to the heavenly Father asked them to drink it in remembrance of His blood that would be shed for the sins of the world. As we begin a new week let us begin it with the Lord by gathering at His table of remembrance. Let each one be reminded of the sacrifice of love as Jesus willingly gave His life that we may be pardoned and reconciled with God. As Paul instructed the Christians at Corinth to partake in a worthy manner, we also need to humble ourselves before God by giving thanks to Him for sending His only begotten Son to save us from our sins. Grace and Peace....Billy John 8:31-32 |
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| Gizmo | Dec 7 2004, 12:46 PM Post #21 |
Wizard of Gadgetry
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when all-ya die you will know the truth. |
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| OzarkPreacher | Dec 7 2004, 12:52 PM Post #22 |
Sir Lancelot
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John 8:31b-32 1Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32“And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” I think I will seek the truth now. |
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| Stacy | Dec 7 2004, 12:57 PM Post #23 |
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Unregistered
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Interesting PC, The apostles choose to do it weekly, but I thought the bible simply said do this often. |
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| Gizmo | Dec 7 2004, 12:59 PM Post #24 |
Wizard of Gadgetry
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ya can't go wrong betting on conscience. |
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| Fr. Mike | Dec 7 2004, 02:09 PM Post #25 |
Abbot Monk, Vintner & Steak Knife Keeper, Purveyor of Stamps
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Karmasasha, I have never attended a Luthern Mass so I cannot speak to that. Now as far as the Roman Catholic Mass is concerned--and the use of juice instead of wine---I have never personally been involved with the Eucharist in any way, shape or form--except in a traditional Latin Mass. I have never celebrated a Vatican 11, [new Mass], nor will I ever celebrate such. Since this is a thread concerning the Eucharist and some have mentioned children here--it is with children-whom I will first address. To begin with, there is nothing more important for a pastor--in all his duties, then the proper preparation [with the parents or guradian] of a child for their first Holy communiuon. The child must be prepared with proper moral training and the viruous formation of the mind. The child must be suffieciently mature that he/she fully understands that Jesus Christ the savior is actually present during the Eucharist and that the bread and the wine are actually the boby and blood of the Savior. There are several goal present during this first communion: 1. That it take place during Pascal time. 2. that it should take place in the parochial church--devoid of special circumstances. 3. That no--effect shall be spared--to firmly fix this occassion indelibly on the mind of the young person. 4. That this be a special solemn Mass. 5. That the boys and girls be assigned to separate sections of the church. 6. The the boys and girls be in proper formal attire for this communion. Although in the early church, it was common practice for a baby to receive communion shortly after baptism, such a case now would only happen in the event that a baby or small child was suffering a life threatening illness. Now for all us adults-- Once again I'm not familiar with protestant services, and as I understand ,--they vary from church to church. However, as a traditionalist, I can assure you that it is my believe that one should never ever forget that this communion represents the contract that we all have with our Savior. Prior to partaking of communion, one should have fasted at least one hour prior. One should be clear in conscience that they have examined their conscience and confessed to and repented any but the least minor of offenses. We should all partake of communion at least once each year. The catholic church offers it to all worthy partakers at every Mass Corpus Domini, nostri Jesu Christ custodiat animan tuam in vitam aeternam Dominus vosisem et cum spir tuo oremum May the body of our Lord Jesus christ preserve your soul unto life everlasting. May the Lord be with thee and with they spirit. Amen Amen Amen Fr. Mike |
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| PIAN0buff | Dec 7 2004, 02:17 PM Post #26 |
Wandering Minstrel
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This makes no sense to me at all. Besides the obvious correlation in the name itself, the original "Lord's Supper" occurred following a meal. Is there some other Biblical basis for this which I'm not aware of? |
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| Stacy | Dec 7 2004, 02:24 PM Post #27 |
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Mike, what is the "new mass" as you call it? |
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| Fr. Mike | Dec 7 2004, 02:36 PM Post #28 |
Abbot Monk, Vintner & Steak Knife Keeper, Purveyor of Stamps
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Pianobuff, Fasting prior to taking communion insures that one is as clean in mind, body and spirit--prior to sharing the body and blood of our savior. Merry Christmas Fr. Mike |
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| Stacy | Dec 7 2004, 02:39 PM Post #29 |
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I was taught to fast as well. We were taught about the story of Jesus fasting. To become clean and closer to God, to help you see your wrongs clearer so you can be sure of being ready to take communion. |
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| kiwi_too | Dec 7 2004, 02:49 PM Post #30 |
Sir Perceval, Ruler of the Realm
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You are so right. I Cor. 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. |
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| Fr. Mike | Dec 7 2004, 02:50 PM Post #31 |
Abbot Monk, Vintner & Steak Knife Keeper, Purveyor of Stamps
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Stacy, The new [mass], I refer to, is one that has been introduced during Vatican 11, and promoted by Pope John Paul 11. That and along with some other changes brought about by John Paul 11 and Vatican 11 are issues that many traditional Roman Catholics are concerned with. Although many in the church believe that the traditional Mass has been replaced, there never has been a formal ruling on the matter, and the Holy See will not address it at this time. This new Mass, being practiced in most of the Dioceses is given in English, has many ommissions, and flys in the face of tradition. It has been an attempt to move the church into the 21st century and caters to the present day fall of man. I don't usually air dirty laundry in public, but---it is my argument, and many of my associates, that the beginning of many of the churchs problems and much of the increase in moral decline of our civilization--has come about by Vatican 11. This is a matter that would take more energy to explain than my finger have to type. Merry Christmas Fr. Mike |
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| kiwi_too | Dec 7 2004, 02:50 PM Post #32 |
Sir Perceval, Ruler of the Realm
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Depends on who's conscience we are talking about. Consciences are developed differently. |
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| Fr. Mike | Dec 7 2004, 02:52 PM Post #33 |
Abbot Monk, Vintner & Steak Knife Keeper, Purveyor of Stamps
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My appologies for straying off the subject of communion. Forgive me. Fr. Mike |
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| Psycmeistr | Dec 7 2004, 03:29 PM Post #34 |
Keeper of the Realm
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One must be careful that one's conscience is fed properly so as to operate properly. |
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| karmasasha | Dec 7 2004, 07:04 PM Post #35 |
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To OP and CP Since my major concern was my dissapointment in finding a Lutheran church in the metro to receive communion every week and then reading replies from other faiths about why they were offered it less;would you both please expedite on why your faiths think it important to offer it every week? This is important to me. Also, do you know of any churches in the northern suburbs of Mpls/St. Paul that would be comparable to the Lutheran church where this is a part of the weekly service? Thank you, Andrea |
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