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New World Court; Who would have tried young Marine
Topic Started: Nov 21 2004, 09:36 AM (215 Views)
wolfe59
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Pack Master
While watching all that was going on with the young Marine in Iraq, it got me to thinking if Clinton and his European friends had their way who would be trying the young Marine in court. Didn't Clinton sign a treaty that would allow our soilders to be tried under a World Court for things that happen on the battlefield? If my memory serves me correct, Clinton sign the treaty and Bush resended the treaty after he took office. Maybe that explains why the military thinks so highly of Bush, he looks after their interest.
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MrsS
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Frau of the Realm
wolfe,
I assume you`re speaking of that International Court in Den Haag/ the Netherlands.

Why would you think it`s bad if he`d be tried there? ( serious question) :)
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Irongoat
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Master of Husbandry
MrsS, I can answer that question. To allow foreign courts to judge what the U.S. Marines do on a battlefield would demoralize the vary troops that are putting their life on the line for us.

If there is a question of an action by our soldiers we have and will take appropriate action. (My personal opinion is there is nothing here, however I will wait for the investigation)

The scary part is that there are people in positions of leadership in our country that would be willing to sell out America on the alter of world government. At least for four years they are out of power.
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MrsS
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Frau of the Realm
Thanks for answering.
Do you assume that he would be tried unjust?
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Bobcatkitty
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Queen Mum
MrsS
Nov 21 2004, 11:58 AM
Do you assume that he would be tried unjust?

Let's see, who could be on that Court? France, Germany, Canada?? What's your best guess Mrs. S.?
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
MrsS
Nov 21 2004, 10:58 AM
Thanks for answering.
Do you assume that he would be tried unjust?

The question in my mind is would he get justice if he were tried in a court made up of people representing countries who have opposed the war because people in their governments were bribed by Saddam? Would he have the same freedom of innocent until proven guilty as he would in the US? Would he have all the rights he is afforded in a US court? Unless someone can convince me that all of these rights he has as a citizen of the US then I would not be in favor of it.
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54thparallel
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Duchess
I personally don't think he should be tried in the world court. Its a well known fact that the circumstances of the U.S. in Iraq is not favoured by the majority of the world. He's already guilty in many minds; those not knowing the facts.

I believe the U.S. military should be the ones to do the investigation and if found warranted, bring the soldier up on military charges.

Not the same thing, but I feel compelled to add that Canada faced similar circumstances back in 93 in Somalia when a teenaged Somalian prisoner was beated to death and some soldiers were shown in photographs with the teen shown as a trophy. One soldier, who actually did the beating, tried committing suicide and ended up failing at that, is ended up severely brain damaged. He was never tried. The one soldier that was tried and convicted received 5 years and given a dishonourable discharge. He was a Private, the lowest on the totem pole of rank. Even though he never beat the teen, he was found guilty of partaking in the party that lead to the beating. No one of any upper rank was ever charged which I find appauling.
Again, the circumstances aren't the same, Somalia was a peacekeeping mission not a war against our soldiers, but the effect is the same.
Just as a note, the investigation into the Somalia Affair lasted more than 4 years. Our top General retired instead of being booted out of his position. The entire Canadian Forces parachute regiment was disbanded. It was considered conduct not acceptable of a soldier under any circumstance.
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MrsS
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Frau of the Realm
Bobcatkitty
Nov 21 2004, 11:07 AM

Let's see, who could be on that Court? France, Germany, Canada?? ...

there are 15 judges...only one of each country.
Presently they`re from:

China
Madagascar
Sierra Leone
Russian Federation
Great Britain
France
Germany
The Netherlands
Venezuela
Brazil
Jordan
Egypt
Japan
Slovakia

and...USA


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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
You haven't convinced me as of yet.
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MrsS
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Frau of the Realm
Buddy Kidd
Nov 21 2004, 12:01 PM
You haven't convinced me as of yet.

3rofl ..............I didn`t expect that.

Trials taking such a long time for sure is a big disadvantage!!!

But, for the rest...there are laws and the judges are committed to them and hopefully they are independent.
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
Do they use the European or the Anglo model to run the court?
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MrsS
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Frau of the Realm
I have no idea... :sorry

Even if I`d take a look at the site I just googled...it`s in German and in no way I`d be able to translate that legal Chinese 2wave


btw I see you`re on line but, looking at "members browsing this forum"
I only can see my name?
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reboots
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Cobbler of the Realm
Why would all of this BS be necessary anyway?No other soldiers have been tried outside of the system that they already are a part of.
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
When I go to another part of the board I would not show up on this forum.

I was asking about the model because as I understand, in the European model a person has to prove his/her innocence. In the Anglo model the state has to prove the persons guilt. A subtle but significant difference.
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54thparallel
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Duchess
Another reason I would not say the world court should have anything to do with the prosecution of this soldier, is that the world court is run by the U.N. The Iragi war is not sanctioned by the U.N. therefore they should have nothing to do with what goes on there.
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
:yeahthat
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reboots
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Cobbler of the Realm
So now we are lawyers who can talk about international laws and court systems. Is there a smiley for delusional?
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
Are we able to talk about international law and court systems in general? Yes. In detail? No.
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MrsS
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Frau of the Realm
Buddy Kidd
Nov 21 2004, 12:43 PM
...in the European model a person has to prove his/her innocence.

You`re innocent until proven guilty.
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reboots
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Cobbler of the Realm
Buddy Kidd
Nov 21 2004, 01:14 PM
Are we able to talk about international law and court systems in general? Yes. In detail? No.

Law concerns details.Generalities and law are seldom used together except to warn law students to never use generalities.
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
But we are not law students but citizens exercising our right of free speech.
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wolfe59
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Pack Master
I just feel that since France and Germany are both a part of the system and both disaprove of our involvement in the democracy in Iraq, this young Marine would not face a partial jury. He would be made an example of and this would result in the breakdown of moral among our soilders. The only way it would seem to be fair would be for only those countries participating in the action to have a part of the jury.
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54thparallel
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Duchess
reboots
Nov 21 2004, 01:10 PM
So now we are lawyers who can talk about international laws and court systems. Is there a smiley for delusional?

Why can we NOT talk about international law? Do you not do research and read to prove your facts?
I've spent near my whole day researching Zundel, DemHaag, Iraqi war, etc. I darned well have every right to make comments on any of these topics.
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reboots
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Cobbler of the Realm
We can talk about anything.We can research untill the cows come home and comment all we want.
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MrsS
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Frau of the Realm
wolfe59
Nov 21 2004, 02:04 PM
I just feel that since France and Germany are both a part of the system and both disaprove of our involvement in the democracy in Iraq, this young Marine would not face a partial jury....

Given they werepartial, they`re only 2 out of 15.

Would the US judge neglect all facts and speak for his fellow countryman?
I don`t think so...and I believe as well that none of the other judges would risk his post because of one man.
They judge on the basics of laws, not on their personal opinions...at least I hope so...but I`m very trustful.
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kiwi_too
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Sir Perceval, Ruler of the Realm
In my simple mind, there is integrity in policing your own. Ensuring that the human rights you defend are not broken by your own thus becoming what you fight againsrt.

LTC West abd Abu Ghraib(?sp) are examples of self policing. Some are quilty and some are not. We, as American citizens, should want to ensure justice for our people and country first. That means that the first consideration should be a U.S. trial first and foremost. We have a more vested initerest in our people and justice for them.
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MrsS
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Frau of the Realm
I finally got it!
You don`t trust them, and nor do you trust the UN and anything else
that`s foreign ...

four more years till H.C. 3rofl

I`ll be off soon...have a good night
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reboots
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Cobbler of the Realm
I rather doubt if this court would be interested in trying a soldier. Seems like they may look into larger issues.World Court
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wolfe59
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Pack Master
Sorry MrsS but yes, I would trust my own way before I would trust another. I would much rather trust those that have a state in the fight rather than trusting those that have a diff agenda than my own.
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slobote
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Realm Ferrymaster
The UCMJ is a bitch as any military man knows. It has the least protection for a military man then you can imagine. It creates the toughest court in the world. The UNIFORM COURT OF MILITARY JUSTICE laws, may even pass a sentence worse then a court out of the USA.

slobote
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