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A question for the Canadians
Topic Started: Nov 21 2004, 06:03 AM (418 Views)
slobote
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Realm Ferrymaster
I read an article recently about a Canadian law called "defaming the dead". The article was about a man by the name of Ernst Zundel who is sitting in a cell in Toronto with a five year sentence hanging over his head for disobeying this law.

Any truth to this story?

slobote
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54thparallel
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Duchess
I'm really not big on the Zundel story, but reading about it I found that this "crime against the dead" is a German law, not a Canadian law

small victory for free speech
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The pressure groups have got him banned not only from Canada but also from Australia and Germany, in which latter country he was convicted of the "crime" of "defaming the dead," a law that exists nowhere else. He was also barred from South Africa until Nelson Mandela lifted the veto against him.


He is held in Canada on hate crimes awaiting deportation to Germany. He was arrested in Tennessee where he lived with his wife and was deported to Canada. Good article which explains his entire battle with Canadian authorities.
Ernst Zundel



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Bobcatkitty
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Queen Mum
Thanks for posting the link Duchess, very interesting story indeed. It appeared to me that his biggest crime was saying what people didn't want to hear, at least in Canada. Little seemed to be said about the USA and why we sent him back to Canada.

It's also interesting how International law is circumvented by the internet.
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MrsS
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Frau of the Realm
I`ve just read the link...thanks...and decided by myself that you can keep him :biggrin your country`s got so many remote places...give him an axe and a gallon of water, that would do.
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54thparallel
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Duchess
MrsS
Nov 21 2004, 10:47 AM
I`ve just read the link...thanks...and decided by myself that you can keep him :biggrin your country`s got so many remote places...give him an axe and a gallon of water, that would do.

Its funny that you say this (the ax & water bit).

I'm one that doesn't agree with capital punishment in the form we know it as (gas chamber, electricution).

I'd like to see these people (not necessarily Zundel but serial killers, child rapists, etc) given a one way ticket in a transport plane up to the frozen tundra as far as the aircraft could fly before having to turn back to refuel, and dropped out the rear end of the plane. I would be humain enough to give them a parachut but the rest is up to them to survive. If someone feels that they are above society's laws then let them make their own society where no others live (or can live).

I never gave Zundel a second thought until Slobote brought it up. I'd heard of him but didn't give a rat's derriere. Now that I spent the morning reading up on the slime, (both his siders and opposers) I've formed an opinion.

I'd like to see him deported back to Germany. Our courts are far too lenient to criminals. This guy fled to escape the German draft even though he's a neo-nazi and a coward! Let your government handle him and may he rot in one of the concentration camps that he professes don't exist. I've done tours of concentration camps when I lived in Germany and I know it happened. I heard the screams, felt the terror. I wept and sobbed as I prayed to God that the atrocities never could happen again.
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MrsS
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54thparallel
Nov 21 2004, 10:58 AM
...I prayed to God that the atrocities never could happen again.

Hopefully not!
I dare say it won`t happen again in Germany. We`ve worked up this dark part of our history rather intensively during the last decades and we`re fully aware of what we`ve done.
Recently there were elections in two of the New Bundesländer...Sachsen and Brandenburg...and in both 5 to 7 % voted for those extreme right-wing
populists. That`s a shame but, it`s due to the fact that in former East Germany the Holocaust never was a subject, they`ve never learned about it. Fortunately these people don`t have a say in the Federal Government.

Where about did you live in Germany?
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
MrsS,

No need to say 'what we have done'. That was a different generation, not the Germany of today. I don't believe the son has the guilt of the father. Yes, it should always be remembered, never forgotten, but it was yesteryear. Not you.

Just my opinion.
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54thparallel
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Duchess
MrsS
Nov 21 2004, 11:21 AM
Where about did you live in Germany?

I was with the Canadian Forces in Lahr and Baden-Baden in the Black Forest from 89 to 94. The Canadians closed the bases with the reasoning that now that the wall was down, there was no need for our presence over there. We still have a scattering of Canadians posted throughout Europe but none of our own bases.

I sure miss it! I posted in the recipe forum looking for some German recipes. Maybe you can help me out?
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slobote
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If you have not noticed the article quoted was posted by the Jewish Defense League or aka the ADL.

They have a very biased view of anything that has to do with saying something detrimental about Jewish people or Israel. I do not agree with most of his statements, but the thought of not being able to express yourself is not what America is all about.

slobote
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
I can understand that.
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MrsS
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Frau of the Realm
Buddy Kidd
:thanx


54th,
you sure lived in a nice area...about 2oo km south of my place.
As for the recipes...ahem, well...I`m not a famous cook :dance
But I`ll go to this tread you`ve mentioned.

slobote,
I`m sorry but I didn`t quite get the meaning of your post :sorry

on edit: obviously my computer had a blackout...I only could see half of your post
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54thparallel
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Duchess
slobote
Nov 21 2004, 11:34 AM
If you have not noticed the article quoted was posted by the Jewish Defense League or aka the ADL.

They have a very biased view of anything that has to do with saying something detrimental about Jewish people or Israel. I do not agree with most of his statements, but the thought of not being able to express yourself is not what America is all about.

slobote

I could just as easily picked one of the 3700 hits I got through google.ca about Zundel. I chose this particular link because it had the most comprehensive explanation of what he is being charged with. I don't find any biased statements in this link whatsoever.

As for not being able to express oneself, the crimes as first stated in this thread, are not American crimes but professed to be Canadian which in turn were proven to be German. We (Canada) DO have "anti-hate" legislation which is totally different than what is stated in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms which grants all citizens the freedom of speech.
Both federal and provincial jurisdictions have human rights legislation that deals with discrimination on a wide variety of grounds, including race, religion, creed and ethnic or national origin. Unlike the US, the federal and all provincial governments have adopted legislation specifically dealing with hate speech and hate propaganda. In Canada, hate speech (the promotion of hatred against identifiable groups) is not a free speech issue; it is against the law.

Quote:
 
charter of rights & freedoms:  Fundamental freedoms    2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
a) freedom of conscience and religion;
B) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
d) freedom of association


hate crimes, as defined by the Criminal Code of Canada states:

The Criminal Code specifically defines hate crimes. They involve hate against people because of their colour, race, religion or ethnic origin. In these kinds of crimes, the act of spreading hate is against the law.

Hate propaganda, the promotion of hatred against identifiable groups, became a criminal offense in Canada in 1970, when the laws were adopted as amendments to the Criminal Code (Sections 318-320). That same year, Canada ratified the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which had been adopted by the UN in 1965, and signed by Canada in 1966. The convention specifically requires states to criminalize hate propaganda and other activities which promote racism. Article 4 of the Convention declares:

State parties, with due regard to the principles embodied in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Shall declare an offense punishable by law all dissemination, as well as all acts of violence or incitement such as acts against any race or group of persons of another color or ethnic origin, and also the provision of any assistance to racist activities, including the financing thereof.


May not be what America is about, but it IS what Canada is about.
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
In the US we see a great deal of difference between Speech on the one hand and Violence or Incitement on the other hand.
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reboots
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Cobbler of the Realm
All of these legislations are the product of people who do nothing but interpit and write law and every word is put in place in a way that only lawyers can understand and judges can decide on. I have watched some supreme court hearings on this stuff and they go on and on about points of law and how a law applies to a situation.
People like us are trying to interpit law? Get real.
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ImaHeadaU
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Buddy Kidd
Nov 21 2004, 12:34 PM
In the US we see a great deal of difference between Speech on the one hand and Violence or Incitement on the other hand.

In Canada it is only speech that "incites" illegal acts against identifiable groups or their members that is against the law.
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
And where is that line? What might incite one would not incite another. Does a actual illegal act of violence have to occur before speech becomes illegal?
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ImaHeadaU
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Bobcatkitty
Nov 21 2004, 10:35 AM
Little seemed to be said about the USA and why we sent him back to Canada.

I believe Ernst Zundel overstayed his visitor permit in the U.S. and was deported. He is a German citizen who came to Canada as a child and never bothered to aquire Canadian citizenship. I believe he lost his Canadian "landed status" or legal residency while he was in the U.S.. He chose to return to Canada and apply for refugee status to avoid facing prosecution in his native Germany. He is basically a Neo-Nazi and not well thought of by many people outside of the "skinhead" circles.
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ImaHeadaU
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Buddy Kidd
Nov 21 2004, 01:20 PM
And where is that line? What might incite one would not incite another. Does a actual illegal act of violence have to occur before speech becomes illegal?

Much like it is illegal to conspire to rob a bank even if you haven't yet conducted the robbery, it is illegal to counsel others to swarm and commit assault and battery against gay individuals for instance.
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
But is it OK to say you think the homosexual life style is wrong or is a sin?
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MrsS
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Frau of the Realm
ImaHeadaU
Nov 21 2004, 01:24 PM
...He chose to return to Canada and apply for refugee status...

Now that`s a REAL bad joke...applying for refugee status...
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ImaHeadaU
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Buddy Kidd
Nov 21 2004, 01:33 PM
But is it OK to say you think the homosexual life style is wrong or is a sin?

Yes.
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
I thought I heard of a Preacher who was indited on Hate Crime charges for preaching that Homosexuals are sining.

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ImaHeadaU
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Buddy Kidd
Nov 21 2004, 01:49 PM
I thought I heard of a Preacher who was indited on Hate Crime charges for preaching that Homosexuals are sining.

Actually, I believe in that case it was not the Preacher's words but his use of a graphic sign that was deemed to be hate propaganda.
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
A sign is a form of speech.
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reboots
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Cobbler of the Realm
Whether a sign is considered to be a form of speach would depend on the law.
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
What law?
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reboots
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Cobbler of the Realm
I would suspect that it would be the law that is applicable to the case in question as other laws would not be pertinent.?? Free speech is not as simple as it sounds.
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slobote
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Realm Ferrymaster
In reality most of these hate crimes, if not all, are really hate thought. An example would be if I stabbed a black man and somebody heard me say something derogatory about blacks I could have my sentence more than doubled. In other words, I could get five years in prison under the assault with a deadly weapon law but because I was thinking that I hate blacks when I commited the crime I would get ten years in prison. The next step if some people get their way, and they usually do, we will have a law here in the USA where even questioning the holocaust can be a crime. I believe it happened, but I should have the right to at least question it, and that is what Zundel did.

Beware of the slippery slope,

slobote
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MrsS
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Frau of the Realm
slobote
Nov 21 2004, 02:36 PM
...but I should have the right to at least question it, and that is what Zundel did.

Now it`s getting academic :juggle
To question the Holocaust is not only stupid hogwash...it`s dangerous.
Maybe I`m too sensitive here but, we`ve learned a lesson.
That doesn`t mean that I don`t criticize Israel about the Palestine conflict...I do...but giving Neo-Nazis the right to question the Holocaust is a different story...they will go on adapting and spreading Adolf`s thoughts...
and we all know the outcome.

The Northern Territories are big... :dance
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ImaHeadaU
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slobote
Nov 21 2004, 02:36 PM
... even questioning the holocaust can be a crime. ... and that is what Zundel did.

Actually, he made false statements about the holocaust and encouraged people to engage in illegal acts against non-whites.
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slobote
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What made The United States of America the greatest, most free, most powerful, and the most wealthy country in the world today is the United States Constitution and the amendments attached. Article one addresses FREE SPEECH. If we keep people off of soapboxes saying things we do not agree with all around the country, we have gone back to the days of germany when Adolf Hitler suppressed the press and all public displays of any disagreements with the policy of his party and his brownshirts.

If Zundel wants to spew his crap, so be it.

slobote

.
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ImaHeadaU
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And if you want you can yell "Fire!" in a crowed theatre too. Right?
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
While there are limits to free speech, saying you don't like someone or showing a sign that says the same thing is not one of them. The bad thing about hate crime legislation is it portends to know what is in a persons mind.
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ImaHeadaU
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Buddy Kidd
Nov 21 2004, 04:17 PM
The bad thing about hate crime legislation is it portends to know what is in a persons mind.

In Canada under Hate Crime legislation people can only be prosecuted for actions that they have taken not just what they may have been thinking. If the accused wishes to proclaim that they were misinterpreted, the courts will give them full opportunity to state their case.
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Admin
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Keeper of the Castle
Let me get this straight. A person says something. Someone else thinks he hates someone else so the first person gets indited, maybe put in jail, and has to defend what his true feelings are? Guilty until proven innocent?
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