Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The United Nations Old Guard. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
Teacher could lose job over fiction
Topic Started: Feb 24 2007, 07:17 PM (208 Views)
Forgottenlord

Members
1) The test if you've had drugs within the X last days (until such a drug gets out of your system) based upon the concentration of said drug. Considering that when said drug is at Y level which is above X, you are high, there is certainly reason to be concerned when it is at X level.

2) Theoretical situation: BIG WAREHOUSE. Hundreds of shelves all over the place. Are you saying that someone should be down every aisle watching for this sort of thing? What a boring and demeaning job? What about a yard with dozens of buildings that spaced all over the place. Plenty of blind areas. Should a yard manager be posted in positions where they can see what everyone is doing at all times (it was actually a place like this where I worked - sure, they had people that were doing spot checks for unsafe activity, but it is a large yard, not everyone is moving all the time, and accidents did still happen)

Not all drugs disappear right away. There's a reason why Tylenol says 4hrs while other medication say 24hrs. Just like alcohol vanishes at a specific pace based upon the individual and type of drug, drugs are scrubbed from the body at a specific rate - and that rate is not the same for all drugs. Some drugs, you are still in no condition to safely operate equipment for 8/10/12 hours straight. With safety being the number 1 priority in many of the industries that are dealing with drug and alcohol tests (in my case, construction and oil and gas), finding ways of looking for pattern problem cases is a good way to approach preventative safety. You fail a drug and alcohol test, clean up your act and come back in a year. Right now, your habits and lifestyle make you a danger to your fellow workers - company, equipment, money, etc, aside, the danger exists and is persistent.

The company I worked for, the number of accidents it had after it instituted its drug and safety policy dropped significantly. The results speak for themselves.

Should policies be universal? Absolutely not. I think you'd be hard pressed to give reason to the average programmer to have a drug and alcohol test (and, actually, my current company only requires it if you are headed to a client's site - since our clients are often oil and gas people and almost always have a drug and alcohol policy). When you aren't the spokes person and you aren't a danger to yourself nor someone else, that's when I think there isn't an excuse for drug and alcohol tests.

BTW - Alcohol tests often check to see if you're BAL is about half of the legal limit or more. Seriously, if you fail an alcohol test, you have problems and you are a real danger to your co-workers.
No, seriously
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TBlack
Member Avatar
The baby killer
Grumpy Old Men
I believe that you shouldn't be drunk or high at work no matter what you do. From what I understand of the breathalyser tests used here in the UK they detect if you are over a certain limit. That's fine and dandy. I wouldn't expect everyone to be breathalyser in the morning (especially as last nights heavy drinking may still be in your system but it isn't affecting your data entry) but in the case of drivers it's probably justified.

But from what I understand of drugs tests they detect the presence of drugs in your body but they do that irrespective of whether or not you are high. Take Cocaine, for example, it can be detected in urine for 12 hours to three days but taking it gives you a hit for less than half an hour or so. This is not based on experience, by the way, but I suppose a drug problem would make the autobiography more interesting. And from what I've been told a hair test can detect what you have taken in a ridiculously longer period.

Now considering that and the fact that things other than drugs and drink can effect your driving I think the only way to see how safe your drivers and colleagues really are is by observing them.
"You would think it obvious to anyone, with a grain of intelligence, that there are far too many people born in England."
.:I'm melting!: http://alwaysautumn.etsy.com :.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Forgottenlord

Members
Observation can't be done for the entire shift without some serious problems - aside from cost, the observer has a pretty fucking demeaning job, the workers are annoyed that they are being watched constantly and feel as if they aren't trusted, etc, etc, etc. In fact, continual supervision is the core concept of Taylorism, one of the more abhorrent management styles in existance (IMO) that pretty much builds upon "manage by fear" - and you're basically suggesting that managers be given a employee-argued reason to implement Taylorism.

But hey, let's push the button a little bit. What if the supervisor is in no condition to work? Who monitors him? I know people who can hide the fact that they are drunk/drugged/etc very well until they are asked to actually perform a task like driving.

On the other hand, carelessness is the #1 cause of accidents. Are you going to have people constantly monitoring for that? What if that creates nervousness which creates other accidents? Amazing conundrum, isn't it?

Yes, the vast majority of people our age who have drugs on a casual level are not going to have problems, but a lot of labor jobs, a decent sized segment are drugged on a regular basis. If a company finds that this is an effective way to drastically reduce accidents, then I honestly believe it is valid. Certainly, I find it less dehumanizing than other alternatives.

(Yes, I'm fairly sure you didn't mean 24hr supervision, but I've already addressed regular but non-constant supervision and how drug testing still did a lot to reduce accidents anyways)

I have never heard of mandating a drug test using hair samples - nor would I support it. I'm not talking about testing for a drug history, I'm talking about testing for present day lifestyles that could endanger what you do at work.

Also, just because you are only high for half an hour doesn't mean that you are impaired for half an hour. Nor does it mean you don't (as I have seen fellow students do) get shot up prior to going to work. For some reason, smokers seem to need to do that with their nicotine.
No, seriously
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TBlack
Member Avatar
The baby killer
Grumpy Old Men
Forgottenlord,Feb 26 2007
10:27 PM
Observation can't be done for the entire shift without some serious problems - aside from cost, the observer has a pretty fucking demeaning job, the workers are annoyed that they are being watched constantly and feel as if they aren't trusted, etc, etc, etc. In fact, continual supervision is the core concept of Taylorism, one of the more abhorrent management styles in existance (IMO) that pretty much builds upon "manage by fear" - and you're basically suggesting that managers be given a employee-argued reason to implement Taylorism.

Well I think we're at that point where we're never going to agree then. Personally I think that you can observes someones behavior, state of mind and performance without being overly intrusive and scary. In fact I think the managers that are in the best position to observe their subordinates are the ones that are on good terms with them, that spend time with them, and that understand them. I'm not suggesting a guy with a clip board I'm suggesting an manager who knows and understands what is going on with his charges. Perhaps that's an overly idealistic view but that's what I've known to work with drivers, the kids I watch and even the forums I manage.
"You would think it obvious to anyone, with a grain of intelligence, that there are far too many people born in England."
.:I'm melting!: http://alwaysautumn.etsy.com :.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Forgottenlord

Members
A great manager who has the list of requirements you've given while being able to perform all the duties of his/her job is, IMHO, a rare gift.

A great manager who is on those kind of terms with all of his employees is even more rare - and while you are effective in trying to create such a commodore with the fellow forum users you admin over, we have seen that it isn't 100% effective - in fact, I don't think there are many if anyone who is mutually friendly with every single other individual on UNOG alone.

Certainly, I'm not that kind of person. I rule through dominance in the debate field and little more. They respect my skills, my capabilities, my knowledge, etc. There aren't many who would consider me a friend - and I certainly am not the type that tries to be friends with everyone.
No, seriously
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TBlack
Member Avatar
The baby killer
Grumpy Old Men
I'm not talking about being friends. I'm talking about knowing people, knowing what's going on and knowing the situation. Right, you can't know everything but you can say hi to everyone when you get in in the morning (if you physically can't that's another problem) And it's not so much about ruling people as it is about leading them.

And yeah. I'm well aware that I'm not the best of friends with everyone. And god knows a handful hate me. All of them I'd much rather be on better terms with. Considering that you know my history here, and the problems I have I'm surprised you didn't think of it as a blow that was just a tad too low.
"You would think it obvious to anyone, with a grain of intelligence, that there are far too many people born in England."
.:I'm melting!: http://alwaysautumn.etsy.com :.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Forgottenlord

Members
You were flaunting your style of admining and I was responding by saying where I saw what I felt was hypocracy in your style of admining to what you were saying. If directing my attack to what I see as an error in your argument is a low blow....

If it makes you feel any better, I had deliberated on whether making it clear that I was not taking a shot at you 'cause I was fairly sure you wouldn't like my comments and it's also why I tried to both complement you and go out of my way to mention how it isn't a situation where you are any worse than anyone else here.

Whatever

I have seen absolutely amazing managers bitched about because they were doing this or this or this when the employees thought they should be doing that and that and that. I have seen absolutely crap managers get hailed for the leadership abilities

Regardless, this isn't the first time I've said this, but I'm fairly sure the core of our disagreement is in the value we place on the human being. In my eye, the chances you are going to find yourself working for a manager in that sort of field who is able to perform these tasks - REGARDLESS of company policies - is extremely low. Even more importantly, even if there are companies that can find a way to get these sorts of people (most likely because there's a senior manager who fits this type of person to begin with), 95% of your companies will not be able to figure out what they're doing. IMO - a drug and alcohol test has a much greater chance of succeeding.

Putting your entire faith in the right type of person being in the right position is asking for a disaster and is no better than putting your faith that the forklift driver will just happen to be the type of person who is sober all the time. Sometimes, you are lucky. Sometimes, you aren't. What happens when you aren't - and who suffers?
No, seriously
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Enjoy forums? Start your own community for free.
Learn More · Register for Free
« Previous Topic · Real World News · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2