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Crazy Crazy Fundies
Topic Started: Feb 7 2007, 03:54 PM (180 Views)
Allech-Atreus
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http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/st...2006576,00.html

I'm always hearing on the radio about the huge problem that Europe has with Muslim radicals (or muslin radicals, but I really don't think it has anything to do with fabric), and immigration, and the Turks. Really, one would think that it's the 16th century all over again, with the "mohammedan hordes" knocking on Vienna's door.

My question is, is any of it true? I get a lot of my news from the BBC, so I generally consider it trustworthy, but news agencies don't tend to give the views of the people living in the places they report from. This story just reinforces my question.

Are Americans just overreacting (as usual) or is there really something to this huge "Muslim war on Europe" deal?
Also known as Snefaldia and Palaam
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Forgottenlord

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Quote:
 
says he blew the whistle to Edexcel, the examinations body, after children were allowed to refer to their annotated texts in an English language exam in breach of the rules.


With this goes the argument, IMO. If he did blow the whistle and was fired shortly after, an investigation should be conducted - on principle if nothing else. If this is not true, then the incompetence claim stands up and this is probably little more than vengeance using sensationalism.

Considering that it would take a simple parsing of the text to determine the validity of this claim, considering that he's been teaching there for 19 years and has lived in the post-9/11 world for 5.5 years, considering the point that there have been inspections that have failed to turn up anything along these lines of questionable activity and the claim that he's making an "extraordinary step" for the good of the children, my gut instinct is he's full of crap.

That said, we have certainly heard of many reports of a European war on Islam - between the Mohammed cartoons in Denmark to the banning of turbans in classrooms by the French. There is a culture war going on in Europe and despite the fact that both of the examples I've given are Europe suppressing Islam, the reversal is true. Whether its severe as this, I don't know.
No, seriously
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TBlack
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Clare's Rules of Religious tolerance.

1.You are a wanker, he is a wanker
2.You both have the right to be wankers
3.You are no less a wanker than he is.
4.You can stop being a wanker by letting each other exist
5.No, hugging a black welsh lesbian doesn't count

Clare's response to the original question

You are dealing with two ideas. One that kids are little shits and some people never grow out of it. They are bullies and cunts. A group of children will pick on the different one. Or the not different one if they can't find anyone. So you get an enclosed environment like a school where the one different kid gets picked on, if you'll allow me to over simplify, like the one white kid in the primarily Arabian bag of sprogs. What should happen is the adults involved kick them up the arse and socialise them. Here the adults are not doing that. Which is how it grows and becomes an bigger issue with teacher of different religions and ethnicities, a different sexuality or a disability.

Of course that's not happening (as severely if you want to be more cynical) everywhere. And no the media don't tell you the good side of things because that's not what we want to read all to often. Although it does happen and somewhere I have a nice feel good article on the subject. In this case I don't think it's any editorialising by Clare Dyer (yay someone else with no i!) but the raw materials are bent in the favor in the OMG Muslim crowd. See (italics mine)

Quote:
 
Mr Cook's solicitor, Lawrence Davies, said he was taking the "extraordinary step" of issuing a statement because British pupils were being put at risk. "We are concerned at the fact that these racist textbooks are being taught in a Saudi-funded school to British pupils and to date no school inspection by Ofsted has identified this appalling practice."


It doesn't seem to be the Gaurdian that's spinning it as scary and it is if he is telling the truth.

As for the reality of life in multi-racial Britain I'm going to tell you about two riots within half an hours drive of me. Oldham, which last suffered a race riot four or five years ago, has two schools basically. The students are split between the poor, run down school and the well off Catholic school. Can we imagine which school Muslims, mainly second generation immigrants, went to? They where essentially segregated for a big block of growing up.

Rochdale has there abouts the same diversity stats. And although there are areas that are predominately Muslim (the areas that is historically where we put our immigrants) and predominately white they are generally mixed together in schooling. Rochdale has never, to my knowledge, had a riot.

When we started at Hopwood hall, a college in Rochdale, my friend Mel confessed that she felt uneasy because she had no experience of being that mixed. I didn't, not because I'm a better person but because I'm used to being the odd one out. Once she got over the newness she realised she was being silly.

We had a race riot at Hopwood Hall. I may have told this story before. It was between the primarily white Football Academy and the primarily asian Boxing Academy. It was all about schools and only about race to the spectators. I don't think it was a proper riot. But hay, race riot sound good.

FL is sort of right. There is a culture war. Like there is a war in Iraq. But it's not like the entire population is fighting or even cares about it.
"You would think it obvious to anyone, with a grain of intelligence, that there are far too many people born in England."
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Bahgum
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I think Claire Clare got to the bottom of the issue here very well. Basically our government welcomes folks from all over the world to stay here, which is fine and to be commended. However they always seem to concentrate the poor ones in large 'communities' in large towns and cities. Almost invariably next door to a large area of poor more established folks. Oddly no one ever seems to think that a them vs us culture (in both directions, regardless of community - with both sides thinking the other is doing better by the government/local council/insert anything to be bloody mindedly jealous of) may spring up over the next generation or so.

All of sudden someone will notice that entrenched views and habits are a problem and talk about integration. Usually when it is too late and the affected area is full of brainless tattooed (and otherwise) racists and fundemental religiously brainwashed dejected youths. Go figure why there is a problem.
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Forgottenlord

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A Bahgum post without a comment about mother-in-laws, this MUST be serious
No, seriously
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TBlack
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Update including pupils being shunned and chapters being torn out of books.

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The book also allegedly asks the reader to "explain that those who die without adhering to Islam will go to hellfire”

Now I get the not calling Jews pigs but really what is wrong with this? It's not nice but it's religion sweetheart.
"You would think it obvious to anyone, with a grain of intelligence, that there are far too many people born in England."
.:I'm melting!: http://alwaysautumn.etsy.com :.
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Forgottenlord

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Y'know....I think I've heard of this belief before.....what was it....

Oh yes, those that don't believe in Jesus go to Hell. That's right....

But wait....this book is saying believers of Jesus will go to Hell, therefore it must be Satanistic and should be burnt!

Oh....wait....no...we aren't talking about the bible belt here.....
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Allech-Atreus
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I'm glad that it's not just sensationalist media that's putting this information out there.

Well, actually, I'm not, really, becase it would be much nicer if there weren't any racial/religious tension to begin with.


Quote:
 
But the translations were "taken out of context" and had "lost some of their meaning", she said.


I love seeing this justification. "Taking it out of context" is just a way of saying "oh god, they caught us."

How do you mistranslate "Jews are pigs?"
Also known as Snefaldia and Palaam
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Forgottenlord

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It doesn't translate as pigs or perhaps it is Jews are no greater than pigs. Regardless, context does play a role and does make things seem more opposed to something than they really are.

Something interesting on that line, Imperfectia was arguing with another Aberdonian about the bible's stance on homosexuality a while back. He said that the quote from the Sodom and Gomorrah story is actually used out of context and when you place it back into context, the sin being committed was attempt to subjugate travelers rather than be hospitable, and thus the town was punished. Context is important, and it is a valid argument, especially when meaning is much deeper than the text.

In the case of Jews are no greater than pigs alternate, what religion does not believe it is greater or more worthy than all the rest? They may be tolerant, they may be welcoming, they may be accepting, but there is still an essence of superiority.
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TBlack
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They are essentially saying that the text book mistranslated but that the mistranslation was taken out of context. Unless the is an 'Of course that's not true' it sound fishy.
"You would think it obvious to anyone, with a grain of intelligence, that there are far too many people born in England."
.:I'm melting!: http://alwaysautumn.etsy.com :.
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Allech-Atreus
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I have heard the same biblical context theory. I tend to take a historian's view of the bible, in that the Old Testament is really just a mishmash of ancient mesopotamian tales, edited together by hebrews looking for unity. But that is neither here nor there.

In context, the teachings fit with Salafist views about Jews and Christians. I suspect that some of this is just ass-covering, on their part, regardless of context. Hell, Jews and Christians were formerly protected citizens in the ancient Muslim world- being people of the book, they were at least allowed to keep their religions and practice.

It's sad, this culture war.
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Forgottenlord

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One thing I've learnt is that trying to argue with a person who believes the Bible is the pure word of God using the argument "the Bible is just some stories tossed together" is a losing argument. Your only chance of disproving the biblical argument is convincing your opponent you know the bible better than they do and absolutely kick their ass using that information.

Regardless, any literature professor would show you how the best literature has degrees of meaning that change when applied to context. Biblical context is extremely important - ESPECIALLY since it is the foundation of some people's beliefs.

Honestly, the school probably deserves minimal criticism over this. They saw value in a book written from the nation they represent, translated to English. Considering the context, I'm not at all surprised that they ended up having to use the book - despite questionable content within it. The fact that they are willing to tear out pages but continue using the textbook shows that they do have value in the textbook, regardless of what else is in it. When you get a textbook with both stuff you want and don't want, do you rip out the stuff you don't want? I've never done that.

This is a PR stunt of the worst kind - and the BBC article tells you exactly who suffered.

Quote:
 
She said pupils and parents had suffered discrimination and intimidation as a result of the controversy.

One local shop had put up a sign saying pupils from the school were not welcome and a passer-by had shouted abuse at a parent waiting outside the school gate.

"The local MP called me and said he was very concerned about the safety of the children and asked if we would like him to send extra police around the area.


There are more discrete ways of raising flags about this issue. My initial assessment still stands.

He's full of crap.
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Bahgum
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yay, claire edited me!
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Randomea
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I'm confused, on the news they showed the teacher reading from the textbook....that was written in Arabic. And that they were removing the whole chapter.
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Allech-Atreus
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The plot thickens...
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