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| Wanted: Babies | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 27 2006, 01:14 AM (194 Views) | |
| Ecopoeia | Mar 27 2006, 01:14 AM Post #1 |
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A solution that also assists greater gender equality? Norway, you rock. Link Norway's welfare model 'helps birth rate' EU states are trying to understand why the birth rate is falling - and if anything can be done to stem the decline. All this week, the BBC News website is asking women in various countries about how they feel about being asked to have more babies, and how easy or difficult they find combining motherhood and work. Here, Lars Bevanger in Oslo looks at whether Norway's generous family policies explain why Norwegian women give birth to more babies than most of their European sisters. Inger Sethov works for Norway's second largest oil and gas company, Hydro. She is pregnant with her second baby. Five-year-old Lea will have a little brother or sister in June. For Inger and her partner Pierre, having children was never a difficult choice. "I'm entitled to 12 months off work with 80% pay, or 10 months with full pay. My husband is entitled to take almost all of that leave instead of me, and he must take at least four weeks out. "Economic considerations never even crossed our minds when we decided to have children. It's just not an issue. Of course that makes it easier for women to have more babies, it gives you an enormous freedom," said Ms Sethov. International travel is part of her work. Very few of the women in similar jobs she meets abroad have children. "There is just a completely different level of acceptance among employers here. It is not uncommon to put a telephone conference on hold, because you can hear a baby crying in the background." High birth rate, high employment rate The paid leave is guaranteed by the National Insurance Act, and dates back to 1956. Because the leave is financed through taxes, employers don't lose out financially when people take out their parental leave. The present system of 10 or 12 months leave with 100% or 80% pay was introduced in 1993. Since then, the fertility rate has been a steady 1.8 - higher than most European countries. At the same time, five out of six women between the ages of 30 and 39 are in employment. No government yet has stated that the aim of generous family policies is to increase birth rates. The main argument has always been to secure greater gender equality. Marit Ronsen is a senior researcher with Statistics Norway. She thinks extended maternity and paternity leave, as well as state-sponsored day care facilities, probably do play a part when people choose to have children. "We don't have a strong, statistical correlation here, but several analysis indicate a link. "What it does mean, is that we have been able to maintain a relatively high birth rate. Many believe the family policies of this country are a necessity to keep that rate stable," she says. 'Daddy quota' Fathers too are encouraged to take as much time off as possible, and must take at least four weeks leave or else those weeks will be lost for both parents. This is known as the 'daddy quota', and the government has proposed to expand it with one more week. Mothers must take the first six weeks after birth as maternity leave, but after that it is up to the parents to share the remaining leave as they wish. Brage Ronningen has just finished his three months of leave. He works for a small company administering recycling of electrical goods. "For us the decision to have our first baby did not really depend on our ability to enjoy a long, financially secure parental leave. But of course now I see how enormously beneficial it has been for all of us," he said. "And I think employers understand the benefits too. Even small companies see that they have to offer generous paternity packages to attract desirable staff. Many even offer more than they have to according to the law." Still, a generous family policy programme is no guarantee for a high fertility level, says Marit Ronsen at Statistics Norway. To illustrate her point, she uses neighbouring Sweden as an example. "Sweden's family policies have been at least as generous as ours. Yet their birth rates have not improved. "Sweden experienced a period of slack in the economy that soon led to a sharp rise in unemployment. Soon after, fertility declined from 2.1 children per woman in 1992 to about 1.5 in 1997. "In economically insecure times, people tend to postpone having children," Ms Ronsen says. Norway has enjoyed a steady economic growth since the early 1990s. Marit Ronsen believes it is a combination between that growth and the family policy that has kept the birth rates here on a steady high. Total equality not here yet Most here agree that Norway's family policy does encourage more equality between the sexes. Many also believe there is a direct link between the system and birth rates, even though there is room for improvement in order to reach the replacement rate of 2.1 children per family. Inger Sethov believes there is only one way forward. "The system will not be completely fair to women until parental leave must be shared 50-50 between mother and father, by law. Only then will women be completely equal in the work market, and perhaps then we will choose to have even more children." BIRTH RATES In Europe 2.1 children per woman is considered to be the population replacement level. These are national averages: Ireland: 1.99 France: 1.90 Norway: 1.81 Sweden 1.75 UK: 1.74 Netherlands: 1.73 Germany: 1.37 Italy: 1.33 Spain: 1.32 Greece: 1.29 Source: Eurostat - 2004 figures |
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Enough is as good as a feast To Ill-Advisedly Go! | |
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| Krioval | Mar 27 2006, 04:21 AM Post #2 |
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He Who Fights
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There are people who want to force men and women to take equal amounts of time off to raise a baby? Huh. Might make breastfeeding a bit difficult. |
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| TBlack | Mar 27 2006, 06:57 AM Post #3 |
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The baby killer
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Personally I don't see a problem with it. I do see a problem with all this pissing and moaning over birth rates. The world is overpopulated, this is nothing but a breed white babies recruitment drive. And what annoys me even more is the assumption that if women are not having children there must be something wrong. |
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"You would think it obvious to anyone, with a grain of intelligence, that there are far too many people born in England." .:I'm melting!: http://alwaysautumn.etsy.com :. | |
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| Krioval | Mar 27 2006, 07:31 AM Post #4 |
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He Who Fights
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True. I'd almost taken it as given that all the crying over declining birthrate was silly with over 6 billion people on Earth. |
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| Fonzoland | Mar 27 2006, 12:04 PM Post #5 |
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Resident Grammar Nazi
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There is an obvious problem if a nation has low birth rates: in the long run, the population is older on average. That means a higher ratio of retired citizens to working citizens; any nation with a social security system will have to direct a higher proportion of GDP to pensions and the health system, and less to productive investment or consumption. Of course everything would be solved if western countries massively adopted chinese or african babies. In practice, that is not likely. People who moan about birth rates are not necessarily being racist. |
![]() I met God the other day, but all I got was this lousy quote: "He's too feminine for his shirt...too feminine for his shirt...oh so feminine it hurts..." | |
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| Groot Gouda | Mar 27 2006, 02:11 PM Post #6 |
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[geographer's glasses on]The world isn't overpopulated. The earth can easily support all the people living on it, though admittedly not at the western living standards. The thing is, a declining birthrate can cause quite a lot of problems locally/nationally. Less working people having to pay for more old and sick people, generally speaking. Fast changing needs for housing. Empty neighbourhoods. So this is not a "breed white babies" thing. It's a matter of keeping the welfare level of a nation on the same level. And if men or women are not having children that's not wrong, but it is against natural urges. Lots of people find that strange. |
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Sincerely, Michel (Mr April) Groot Gouda Member of the International Democratic Union. Writer of the Sex Industry Worker Act, the Natural Disaster Act and The Right to Form Unions. | |
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| Ecopoeia | Mar 27 2006, 02:26 PM Post #7 |
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Fonzo and GG have neatly illustrated why we need more mewling puke and shit machines. The reason why I flagged the Norwegian model is that it emphasises the father's role in child-rearing. Too often the policies instituted by govt's focus on giving women more time/money to raise children. I happen to believe that gender is pretty much irrelevant. Children do best when there's a parent at home with them on a full-time basis. It makes no odds if that parent is the mother or father (or if both work part-time and split the duties). And it doesn't matter who's doing the breeding - if we were to adopt Norwegian policy in the UK, the incentives would be colour-blind, though its true that the white birth rate is currently the lowest. Tangentially, I will say that I don't believe in a 'right' to have children. Want kids but can't physically have them? Adopt. |
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Enough is as good as a feast To Ill-Advisedly Go! | |
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| _Myopia_ | Mar 27 2006, 04:55 PM Post #8 |
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Autonecromancer extraordinaire
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Getting more babies and young people in is actually a personal interest point for us younger people, because it's us that will be suffering in old age when there are no young workers around to fund our pensions and healthcare. It's part of the reason I think we ought to be encouraging immigration as well as getting people here to have more kids. |
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The Liberal not-quite-Utopia of _Myopia_ Liberty with Compassion - La liberté et l'humanité | |
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| VL | Mar 27 2006, 07:48 PM Post #9 |
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The Sorcerors Apprentice
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On A personal level I have 2 gorgious Babies (Just over the Average 1.99 ) and I would prefer to Keep it that way. My wife on the other hand would love to have 20 Kids. My way, the boys would get more from what I have to offer by way of quality schooling and quality of life. If we adopt her approach, More kids = more mouths and more school costs and jesus More everything costs. I came from a family of 7 kids. Dad was a Plumber, Mom was a housewife. We got the basics and Plenty of love and support. But anything we have now was from Hard work and graft. The time my kids will have on this planet is short. I dont want them in mc donalds when in college. I want them to have the oppertunities i never had. Besides, I totally agree with TBlack here. There is an ever increasing scare that white European types will be swallowed up by the ever burgeoning asian people moving to our Countries. Meanwhile millions die every day from starvation and disease in developing nations. The world is indeed a cruel Place. |
Author Of NSUN Resolutions #96 UNWODC & #119 UNCoESB ![]() <marquee>(\ /) ( xx) C('')('') "VL laughed so Hard! Dead funny or just dead Bunny"..... Kill a Cbox today! your brain will thank you! </marquee> | |
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| TBlack | Mar 27 2006, 08:15 PM Post #10 |
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The baby killer
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My Nan was one of 9, My Mum one of 4, I am one of three. My children will be rodents, preferably hamsters and rabbits. As much as I'm concerned about ageing population I think it's an inevitability we'll have to face or risk running out of resources sooner rather than later. And I know I'm saying this because I'm young, unnatural and grossly immoral. No need to point that out. Because I'm not pointing out that it's easy for you to say we need more babies as men only do 10% of the childcare.
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"You would think it obvious to anyone, with a grain of intelligence, that there are far too many people born in England." .:I'm melting!: http://alwaysautumn.etsy.com :. | |
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| Ecopoeia | Mar 27 2006, 10:37 PM Post #11 |
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Well it absolutely comes down to choice, obviously. But I approve of govts making it easier for people to choose to have kids if they want them. |
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Enough is as good as a feast To Ill-Advisedly Go! | |
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| Fonzoland | Mar 28 2006, 12:32 AM Post #12 |
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Resident Grammar Nazi
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![]() I met God the other day, but all I got was this lousy quote: "He's too feminine for his shirt...too feminine for his shirt...oh so feminine it hurts..." | |
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| Krioval | Mar 28 2006, 01:25 AM Post #13 |
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He Who Fights
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I guess I just don't see how it's a positive thing for "the government" to encourage people to have more children. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that birthrate declines. Eventually, this means that more tax money needs to be diverted to take care of the childless elderly. So taxes will rise (more likely than not). Let's say, then, that "the government" intervenes, making it easier to have children. Ultimately, taxes will still rise - all that government subsidy has to come from somewhere. Why should people who decide against having children, and instead remain productive in the workplace, be punished? Further, why should gender necessarily enter into the parental leave question? I'd say that a good reason for the mother to take time off in the beginning is that first, she's massively pregnant, and may be uncomfortable working (if not, good for her if she wants to work until her water breaks - whatever works). Second, if she decides to breastfeed, she's going to have a tough time working - not because of the baby-on-boob situation so much as for the difficulty of keeping a baby in the workplace without sending everybody's productivity straight to the abyss. After the baby is weaned, then I can see a stronger role for the father, should he take parental leave. I do see a problem with societies codifying parental behavior into law (aside from child abuse legislation) simply because nearly every family is different. They should be able to choose what works best for them, given their current situation. |
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| Ecopoeia | Mar 28 2006, 01:35 AM Post #14 |
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I see your points, Raijin, but gender equality is an area where I reckon government funding is worthwhile if it's going to have a positive effect. And such programmes don't have to be an additional tax burden for the wider public - they could be at the expense of other spending areas (I'd choose the military and corporate welfare, which will shock no one). Let's take the position that there is ultimate gender equality in terms of choice. It may be that more women (epecially the breastfeeders) elect to look after the child than men. But at least there has been a real choice. I think the Norwegian model is the best I've seen for reaching this position. |
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Enough is as good as a feast To Ill-Advisedly Go! | |
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| Groot Gouda | Mar 28 2006, 07:39 AM Post #15 |
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They'll rise less, because there are more people to pay taxes. The load is spread more. |
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Sincerely, Michel (Mr April) Groot Gouda Member of the International Democratic Union. Writer of the Sex Industry Worker Act, the Natural Disaster Act and The Right to Form Unions. | |
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) and I would prefer to Keep it that way. My wife on the other hand would love to have 20 Kids. My way, the boys would get more from what I have to offer by way of quality schooling and quality of life. If we adopt her approach, More kids = more mouths and more school costs and jesus More everything costs. I came from a family of 7 kids. Dad was a Plumber, Mom was a housewife. We got the basics and Plenty of love and support. But anything we have now was from Hard work and graft. The time my kids will have on this planet is short. I dont want them in mc donalds when in college. I want them to have the oppertunities i never had. 
