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Council Election Discussion; Split of Council Election in announcements
Topic Started: 22nd May 2016 - 06:45 AM (411 Views)
Royos
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The Council of 13
a missive from below

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http://s6.zetaboards.com/The_UnderEmpire/topic/8969511/



Rusty Tincanne
22nd May 2016 - 03:39 AM
In a real election these members could have my vote. But several steps of the election process have been side-stepped here. What harm would a week or two more do?

With that in mind, I vote no both. :(

At first I was like "yeah cool they get my vote" but then I read what Rusty Tincanne said above and it made think.

Doesn't skipping elections set a bad precedent? And shouldn't we be voting for actual candidates, not people hand-picked by the council?
Not having an election because it's too long and hard just sounds lazy. And how do you know the outcome will be the same? That seems highly unlikely as well.

I have nothing against the people you've chosen, both great members that I would vote for.
But I don't agree with skipping the election so...
Edited by The Council of Thirteen, 27th May 2016 - 03:47 PM.
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Mathusala0
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Doesn't skipping elections set a bad precedent? And shouldn't we be voting for actual candidates, not people hand-picked by the council?
Not having an election because it's too long and hard just sounds lazy. And how do you know the outcome will be the same? That seems highly unlikely as well.


You bring up a fair point

it came down to the third part of the elections. The Council has always had final say in who gets on the ballet. With the low member numbers and the results of the last election, it is easily within reason that after narrowing down the candidates to 3-4 choices, the council has enough voting power on its own to swing the vote to whomever we wanted.

Now that in itself rather defeats the point of the process and would have been deceiving and a sham. We debated ignoring the election entirely but do to convincing arguments and capable heads we compromised on this yes/no vote. This leaves the final decision in the members hands.
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Rusty Tincanne
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Ratty Gnawtail
22nd May 2016 - 08:41 AM
...the P&H system is short of hands....
Not to beat a dead horse, but couldn't that point have been made public along with a full election? I don't believe the membership would have ignored the point.

It is true the Co.XIII has final say as to who is on the election ballot, but only out of the members nominated. In past elections there have been some nice, surprise nominations.

Again, my objection has nothing to do with Niall or Guildenstern's qualifications. And it is nothing against the current Council's decision to go this route. I admire their openness to taking feedback on this matter. I might just be too attatched to tradition. :unsure:
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Bodacious
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I think this speed-election is great and I think both members are good choices that could hopefully help make UE a relevant place again in this post-AoS universe. They seem excited and giving these people access to mod/admin controls can only be benificial to the site. I would love to see an invigorated P&H section as well as a strong pro-AoS voice on the council and I from what I know of them these guys seem up to the task. The speed of this move is also great since there's rumors of an AoS summer campaign in the works and having a mod team that's on the ball with this could help us lead the charge for Team Skaven.

The only thing I'm missing is some statements from the nominees. What plans do Nial and guildenstern have for the site? What would they like to promote and what can we expect from them as moderators? Why do they want to be on the council? Are they at all interested in revising stickies, reorganising forums and/or dusting off the portal site? Because there are certain members (who shall not be named in this post) who are positively itching to get this stuff done, but are unfortunately not held in such high esteem by the council.

In any case, I stand by my vote.
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Ratty Gnawtail
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Rusty Tincanne
22nd May 2016 - 01:00 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but couldn't that point have been made public along with a full election? I don't believe the membership would have ignored the point.
Aye, I personally think it could have. My previous post was an attempt to explain why this whole election has come about, which I feel could have been made clearer in the initial post. At the same time I can see the reasonings for this decision and whilst I disagree with the format (public votes to me have that crowd mentality to them) I am at least glad that there is still some kind of member participation in this.

Regardless of member numbers, I think i'd like UE elections to run in the traditional way. It is a flawed system, but I enjoyed the build up and excitement for it when I was a member. Choosing amongst your fellows always gave that feeling of ownership to the forum, something I would not like to see disappear.

And don't worry Rusty, you make perfectly valid points and are certainly not speaking out of turn. I'm the one more liable to get into trouble as whilst I am obliged to go for the "all for one and one for all" stance with the Council, i'd rather be open in responding with my feelings even if i'm a bit of a fence sitter in this matter. :P
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rjward1999
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Ratty Gnawtail
22nd May 2016 - 02:11 PM
Rusty Tincanne
22nd May 2016 - 01:00 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but couldn't that point have been made public along with a full election? I don't believe the membership would have ignored the point.
Aye, I personally think it could have. My previous post was an attempt to explain why this whole election has come about, which I feel could have been made clearer in the initial post. At the same time I can see the reasonings for this decision and whilst I disagree with the format (public votes to me have that crowd mentality to them) I am at least glad that there is still some kind of member participation in this.

Regardless of member numbers, I think i'd like UE elections to run in the traditional way. It is a flawed system, but I enjoyed the build up and excitement for it when I was a member. Choosing amongst your fellows always gave that feeling of ownership to the forum, something I would not like to see disappear.

And don't worry Rusty, you make perfectly valid points and are certainly not speaking out of turn. I'm the one more liable to get into trouble as whilst I am obliged to go for the "all for one and one for all" stance with the Council, i'd rather be open in responding with my feelings even if i'm a bit of a fence sitter in this matter. :P
At first I was all for them being council members, but reading what has been said on the matter I'm beginning to swing towards the wary camp (watch out Ratty, it'll be two of us :P ). They'd both probably still get in even with a full election, but that allows us as members as well as those on the council to see why they should be, and lets us feel that we have more say over what goes on. And whilst I have only experienced one election (possibly two, but I may have missed one!) it was fun and made it more of an honour, as opposed to just being picked, as one had to prove oneself. Anyway, that's just a young rats view on the matter, so take from it what you will ^_^
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Royos
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So, I just wanted to say that while I was critical of not having an election, I do appreciate that Maths is trying to get some fresh blood in and help revitalise the forum. This is something that is definitely a step in the right direction. ;)

Hey Skaven Dan, there must be some material here for your next podcast right... :rolleyes:
Edited by Royos, 22nd May 2016 - 10:59 PM.
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Royos
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That, was a really good bio. Cheers.

I first started with ww2 planes as well. The P51 is a beauty no doubt. My personal fav was the focke wulf.

Anyway, sounds like you have the credentials.



Nurglitch IX
23rd May 2016 - 03:41 PM
I've got over 80 messages spanning four weeks debating this, and it's still only here because someone went rogue.

New Councilors isn't going to speed things up, they're going to slow things down. They're not going to revitalize the board, they're going to further deadlock the council.
Sounds like you have stuff you wana share Nurglitch. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. So what do you mean by someone went rogue?
And, is the council deadlocked? What do you mean by this and how will new councilors make it worse?
Edited by Royos, 24th May 2016 - 05:28 AM.
Royhammer (Army Diary)
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WillQueek
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I also feel like that could be elaborated some more.

Also guys, to add to the discussion, I actually don't think we should hold a full fletched election instead of this.

The council has been looking for people to fill in the gaps Silas and Vorg leave behind, they have found two perfectly qualified people to fill the gap and we still get to have our say. I see no problem here.

This method might actually be better. Since we skip to the part where we decide about actually qualified people.



Btw, Guildenstern you have a really convincing bio there! Have a cookie! @
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Nurglitch IX
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Royos
24th May 2016 - 05:24 AM
Nurglitch IX
23rd May 2016 - 03:41 PM
I've got over 80 messages spanning four weeks debating this, and it's still only here because someone went rogue.

New Councilors isn't going to speed things up, they're going to slow things down. They're not going to revitalize the board, they're going to further deadlock the council.
Sounds like you have stuff you wana share Nurglitch. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. So what do you mean by someone went rogue?
And, is the council deadlocked? What do you mean by this and how will new councilors make it worse?
The council doesn't Deadlock, ever. But remember there's 12 of us, spread pretty evenly around the globe. Each with our own schedules and availabilities. Right now we're running on a reduced staff, and we know it, so we want to hear yes or no from 5 people before we do anything. If it's something important, like this election, we want to hear from everyone before we act, even if we know we've got 5.

The problem comes in when something isn't yes|no. Like this election. Do we need to replace people? Do we need moderators? Do the moderators need to be full council members? Do we need to revive the Council Guard? What about special areas? Would having an AOS/9thAge/KoW 'ambassador' be better than a general mod? And how do we get a new person? Do we hold a full election? Do we hold an up/down poll? Do we just say these are them? How many people voted last election? How many do we need to hold an election? Do we hold separate elections or a combined one? And always the question: will we be a block, and if so, will that 10 people sway the election?
And remember, we're 8-10 people in this discussion, and it may be 16 hours between replies because timezone.

So, adding 2 new councilors, that means every important decision requires another round or two of discussion. Even unimportant ones need another vote to pass a majority.

And we have to balance this against what we get for our people. Honestly I see only 1 thing we need, and they're both super qualified people for this: we need someone who's got more free time than me to run our competitions. I try, I really do, but between family, scouts, keeping all the other parts of the board going, the 7 facebook groups I admin for, and a full time job as a programmer, I get stretched a bit thin some weeks. And there's not much of that I can pass off to others.

I've said all this in Council Chambers, and a bit more besides, and I don't think any of this violates confidentiality, and of course, this is all me and my position. Obviously each of the others has their own, same or different, and they're free to share some of that as well.

As for the other, I'd have liked a day or two to finish our votes, and reset the Announcement Forum to handle a proper poll. We had the 5 to hold the up|down vote, though obviously we had no votes as well, but not everyone was finished weighing in, and even if they were minority voices, they deserve the chance to swing the vote their way with a solid argument. There was also another day or two as we wrote the vote post, as again, not all the members had signed off yet.

I know we wanted to get this up and moving, because if it's to be done it best be done quickly, and the Horned Lord knows I've got 3 other projects I need to get moving that don't need to be taking debate time away from something as important as new seats. But a day or two would have been nice.
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Royos
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WillQueek
24th May 2016 - 06:21 AM
I also feel like that could be elaborated some more.

Also guys, to add to the discussion, I actually don't think we should hold a full fletched election instead of this.

The council has been looking for people to fill in the gaps Silas and Vorg leave behind, they have found two perfectly qualified people to fill the gap and we still get to have our say. I see no problem here.

This method might actually be better. Since we skip to the part where we decide about actually qualified people.



Btw, Guildenstern you have a really convincing bio there! Have a cookie! @
Yeah, although I wasn't keen on it to begin with, I'm warming up to the idea.
Royhammer (Army Diary)
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rjward1999
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You can change this?
Nurglitch IX
24th May 2016 - 07:21 AM
Royos
24th May 2016 - 05:24 AM
Nurglitch IX
23rd May 2016 - 03:41 PM
I've got over 80 messages spanning four weeks debating this, and it's still only here because someone went rogue.

New Councilors isn't going to speed things up, they're going to slow things down. They're not going to revitalize the board, they're going to further deadlock the council.
Sounds like you have stuff you wana share Nurglitch. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. So what do you mean by someone went rogue?
And, is the council deadlocked? What do you mean by this and how will new councilors make it worse?
The council doesn't Deadlock, ever. But remember there's 12 of us, spread pretty evenly around the globe. Each with our own schedules and availabilities. Right now we're running on a reduced staff, and we know it, so we want to hear yes or no from 5 people before we do anything. If it's something important, like this election, we want to hear from everyone before we act, even if we know we've got 5.

The problem comes in when something isn't yes|no. Like this election. Do we need to replace people? Do we need moderators? Do the moderators need to be full council members? Do we need to revive the Council Guard? What about special areas? Would having an AOS/9thAge/KoW 'ambassador' be better than a general mod? And how do we get a new person? Do we hold a full election? Do we hold an up/down poll? Do we just say these are them? How many people voted last election? How many do we need to hold an election? Do we hold separate elections or a combined one? And always the question: will we be a block, and if so, will that 10 people sway the election?
And remember, we're 8-10 people in this discussion, and it may be 16 hours between replies because timezone.

So, adding 2 new councilors, that means every important decision requires another round or two of discussion. Even unimportant ones need another vote to pass a majority.

And we have to balance this against what we get for our people. Honestly I see only 1 thing we need, and they're both super qualified people for this: we need someone who's got more free time than me to run our competitions. I try, I really do, but between family, scouts, keeping all the other parts of the board going, the 7 facebook groups I admin for, and a full time job as a programmer, I get stretched a bit thin some weeks. And there's not much of that I can pass off to others.

I've said all this in Council Chambers, and a bit more besides, and I don't think any of this violates confidentiality, and of course, this is all me and my position. Obviously each of the others has their own, same or different, and they're free to share some of that as well.

As for the other, I'd have liked a day or two to finish our votes, and reset the Announcement Forum to handle a proper poll. We had the 5 to hold the up|down vote, though obviously we had no votes as well, but not everyone was finished weighing in, and even if they were minority voices, they deserve the chance to swing the vote their way with a solid argument. There was also another day or two as we wrote the vote post, as again, not all the members had signed off yet.

I know we wanted to get this up and moving, because if it's to be done it best be done quickly, and the Horned Lord knows I've got 3 other projects I need to get moving that don't need to be taking debate time away from something as important as new seats. But a day or two would have been nice.
Well I've currently got exams, but also a hell of a lot more free time as a result, and will do for a couple of months. I'd be happy to run competitions (with some guidance from the council :P ) if that's what needs to be done
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Nurglitch IX
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rjward1999
24th May 2016 - 09:33 AM
Nurglitch IX
24th May 2016 - 07:21 AM
...
And we have to balance this against what we get for our people. Honestly I see only 1 thing we need, and they're both super qualified people for this: we need someone who's got more free time than me to run our competitions. I try, I really do, but between family, scouts, keeping all the other parts of the board going, the 7 facebook groups I admin for, and a full time job as a programmer, I get stretched a bit thin some weeks. And there's not much of that I can pass off to others.
...
Well I've currently got exams, but also a hell of a lot more free time as a result, and will do for a couple of months. I'd be happy to run competitions (with some guidance from the council :P ) if that's what needs to be done
I think we'll have competitions covered shortly.

But depending on how my next project goes, I am hoping to need volunteers for some labor intensive stuff before the end of summer. I'll keep you on the short list ;) Dev
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Royos
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Nurglitch. Instead of getting people to do stuff for you, why we just get someone in who has the time and energy to do things in your place?
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Nurglitch IX
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Royos
25th May 2016 - 01:22 AM
Nurglitch. Instead of getting people to do stuff for you, why we just get someone in who has the time and energy to do things in your place?
That's not how it works. This is temp work, a one and done job with a clearly defined start and finish. We do it in the real world all the time, hell, that was *MY* job for 10 years.

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