Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
Fellblade vs. the 3rd Eye of Tzeentch
Topic Started: 2nd October 2014 - 10:43 PM (617 Views)
Stayner
Member Avatar
Clanrat
The point I want to bring up is the Fellblade's ability to force a re-roll of successful ward save.
The 3rd eye allows a 'conditional' re-roll of the bearer's failed ward save.
In other situations where there are opposing re-rolls (such as the Karybdiss vs. a nearby battle standard) they just cancel out and there are no re-rolls for success or failure.
Yet, has anyone faced this cunundrum before? Should the the fellblade be forcing a re-roll? Should the 3rd eye then be allowed another re-roll if the failure is a 1?
Hobby activity on my YouTube channel: YouTube
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
theviking
Clanrat
I've seen the same issue when facing banishment. In that case we rerolled everything but twos - successes were rerolled due to banishment, ones were rerolled due to third eye. I would play the fellblade the same way.
Edited by theviking, 3rd October 2014 - 12:50 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Nurglitch IX
Member Avatar
Avatar by count zero

theviking
3rd October 2014 - 12:49 PM
I've seen the same issue when facing banishment. In that case we rerolled everything but twos - successes were rerolled due to banishment, ones were rerolled due to third eye. I would play the fellblade the same way.
Yeah, this is what I was thinking.

Main rule - only one ReRoll.
Secondary rules
- If it passes, reroll
- If it's a 1, reroll

Second Roll always stands.
-img-http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/underempire/PRS%20Banners/2hfhshwet.jpg[/img]
This Space for Rent
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Stayner
Member Avatar
Clanrat
I think I can wrap my head around that.
Hobby activity on my YouTube channel: YouTube
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SkavenInAZ
Member Avatar


I could swear there is verbiage about if 2 rules say you re-roll something, you just don't re-roll. But I can't find that at the moment.

This also seems to hurt the WoC player, as they have to re-roll 4 successful results and only get to re-roll 1 result. I'd think it better that just no re-roll applies.

Posted Image
]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Nurglitch IX
Member Avatar
Avatar by count zero

SkavenInAZ
7th October 2014 - 07:12 PM
I could swear there is verbiage about if 2 rules say you re-roll something, you just don't re-roll. But I can't find that at the moment.

This also seems to hurt the WoC player, as they have to re-roll 4 successful results and only get to re-roll 1 result. I'd think it better that just no re-roll applies.

There's something about conflicting rerolls in an FAQ, but these aren't conflicting, because what causes one to happen (succeed) is different than what causes the other to happen (roll a 1).
***There's a greater than 0 chance I have one of those wrong. I don't have the book with 3rd Eye of Tzeentch in it, so I'm going by what's been posted here ***

As to what helps or hurts, look at them not in combination, but separately. If they only had Fell blade, what's the result matrix. If they only had 3rd eye, what's the result matrix. Then compare to the final result matrix.

I can put all that together if people care enough.

INTERATE:
BRB FAQ 1.8
pg 5
Q: If a model is granted a re-roll To Hit from a special rule such as Hatred but the model they are attacking has a special rule, magic item etc. that forces successful To Hit rolls to be re-rolled, how is this dealt with? (p7)
A: They cancel each other out and no re-rolls are made for as long as both special rules are in effect.
Edited by Nurglitch IX, 7th October 2014 - 07:51 PM.
-img-http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/underempire/PRS%20Banners/2hfhshwet.jpg[/img]
This Space for Rent
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SkavenDan
Member Avatar
Doomwheel Fanatic
You re-roll successful ward saves so they still get to re-roll ones.
But they are to be rolled seperately because you can not re-roll a re-roll whatever you roll second time sticks.
Or at least that is how it is played here.
Posted Image Twitter @SkavenDan

YouTube SkavenDan

SkavenBlight Radio Website

Twitch SkavenDan

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mathusala0
Member Avatar
The Evil Underlord

Since it says reroll success for the fellblade, and reroll fails for the eye, youed technically reroll everything once. Or you could just ignore it.
Posted Image
The Glossary of Common Underempire Lingo
The Skaven Guide to competitive list building (8th Edition)
The Skaven Castle Formation
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SkavenInAZ
Member Avatar


Mathusala0
8th October 2014 - 02:37 AM
Since it says reroll success for the fellblade, and reroll fails for the eye, youed technically reroll everything once. Or you could just ignore it.
Everything except a result of a 2.

Posted Image
]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
carrelio
Clanrat
The same question came up on the Dark Elf forum (though obviously not involving the fellblade). It's not that the rerolls actually cancel out it's that statistically you can streamline the process to have the same result.

If the ward save is failed the fellblade does not trigger a reroll because the save was already failed.
If the ward save is failed the third eye of Tzeench triggers a reroll because the save was failed.
Only one reroll is permitted per roll, this reroll is used by the third eye of Tzeench and now pass or fail the fellblade cannot force a further reroll.
If the ward save is passed the third eye of Tzeench does not trigger because the save was already passed.
If the ward save is passed the fellblade triggers because the save was passed.
Only one reroll is permitted per roll, this reroll is used by the fellblade and now pass or fail the third eye of Tzeench cannot force a further reroll.

Mathematically the two sides of the 'reroll equation' are identical, meaning that from a statistically significant point of view, the entire first roll can be canceled out by reducing the 'equation' to its most straight forward result:

(result with reroll) = (pass with reroll or fail with reroll)
(result with reroll) / reroll = (pass with reroll or fail with reroll) / reroll
result = pass or fail
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Didimus
Stormvermin
I think you can only do that streamlining if the rerolls are equal and opposite, though. If the Fellblade rerolls successes and the 3rd eye rerolls 1s, then they would only cancel out if the defender only had a 6++ save. If he had a better save (say 4++), then cancelling the rerolls would shortchange the bearer of the fellblade.

Roll1 (assuming (4++):
1 = Reroll (from 3rd eye)
2 = fail
3 = fail
4 = Reroll (from Fellblade)
5 = Reroll (from Fellblade)
6 = Reroll (from Fellblade)

Result of roll 1: 2/6 Fail, 4/6 reroll.

Roll2 (assuming (4++):
1 = fail
2 = fail
3 = fail
4 = pass
5 = pass
6 = pass

Result of roll 1: 3/6 Fail, 3/6 pass.

So that would equate to the defender failing: 2/6 + (4/6)(3/6) = 4/6 of the time and passing 2/6 of the time.

Cancelling the rerolls would let him pass 3/6 of the time.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
carrelio
Clanrat
Ah, I (having never fought someone using the third eye of Tzeench) thought it let you reroll failed ward saves if you failed, not just on a 1.

In that case, yes, you've got to play it out and whoever proc's the first reroll gets the only reroll. If the ward save passes, the fellblade kicks in and forces a reroll. If the ward save is failed with a 1 then the eye kicks in and forces a reroll. The second result is final.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
snowblizz
Member Avatar
Ph.D.
I gotta say, people are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to fixated on the "no re-rolls" thing. It's not rocket science. It's not a life-or-death situation. It's a fairly general rule to stop some arguing. The game works just as well if both sides re-roll what they are allowed. It's just mathematically (?) speaking unnecessary, but personally I always feel better. It still the the idea of people throwing 2 dice at a single re-roll.

I have to say anytime someone starts waving their finger and mumbling "no re-rolls" I get the urge to grab and break it. I'm not trying to re-roll my own re-rolls which is fundamentally what I see the rule being about, eg I have Hatred and ASF e.g.

I promise, it's faster for both players to re-roll than the resulting arguments from situations where it is hashed out. (Likewise the smart-asses with their 2 dicing actually lose time because they have to explain to me, thrice, how they are not cheating me, and I'm still not convinced).
Snowblizz' Sneaky Skaven armyblog
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RedPlague
Member Avatar
Chieftain
I always thought that you could never reroll a reroll... :S
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SkavenDan
Member Avatar
Doomwheel Fanatic
RedPlague
13th October 2014 - 12:25 PM
I always thought that you could never reroll a reroll... :S
You can't it's in the BRB
Posted Image Twitter @SkavenDan

YouTube SkavenDan

SkavenBlight Radio Website

Twitch SkavenDan

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Fantasy Battles Rules Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply