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Spirit Leech and Unmodified Leadership.; SiN, and Unmodified leadership
Topic Started: 25th September 2014 - 05:13 AM (430 Views)
Sicturus


So, earlier today I was playing my friend, who chose to play a Loremaster, with a ton of signature spells. We are both still relatively new to the game, and had a bit of a discrepancy, that I would love to have clarified.

Turn 2, he decides to cast Spirit Leech on my Grey Seer. My Grey Seer was in the front rank of a group of 40 Stormvermin, 5wx8l. Spirit Leech reads that you take the unmodified leadership of a model, and use that plus whatever you roll.

Seeing as how I had Strength in Numbers, and multiple ranks, my leadership would be at a 10(IIRC, I don't have my book next to me at the moment). The SiN Errata reads as such:

Page 33 - Strength in Numbers.
Change the second sentence of the first paragraph to “Units
with the Strength in Numbers special rule add their current
rank bonus to their Leadership value for any Leadership test.”

Now, I interpreted it to be that ANY time you use leadership, that you get the SiN. So I would have a higher leadership, and thus a better chance at surviving the spell (if it had gone off, but I digress). My buddy states that unmodified leadership would be the 7(?) that is written on the models profile. I'm sure this has come up before, but I would like to hear a solid response. Most of the times I read about unmodified leadership has been involving Steadfast, which isn't the case here.

Thanks!
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SkavenInAZ
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Unfortunately, Skaven don't get Strength in Numbers from Spirit Leech:

BRB p. 10
 
Leadership Tests: To take a Leadership test, roll 2D6. If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership value, then the test has been passed.


Spirit Leech's rules do not say take a Leadership test. Instead, you roll a D6 and add your current unmodified Leadership to that. Because of this, you can only use the best Leadership you have available to you in the unit (BRB FAQ p. 5). In addition, as this isn't a Leadership test, you can't use a re-roll from your Battle Standard Bearer.

As such, your characters are likely to be Leadership 7 at best (without the Standard of Discipline in the unit that's being targeted) for Spirit Leech.

A few things you can do to help against this. Put all the characters in 1 unit. This allows them to all use the LD7 from a Seer or Warlord. Then add a Magic Resistance token onto one of the models. This (combined with any Ward Saves on the characters) will let you get a Ward Save of up to 2+ against any damage from the spell.

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Sicturus


SkavenInAZ
25th September 2014 - 12:41 PM
Spirit Leech's rules do not say take a Leadership test. Instead, you roll a D6 and add your current unmodified Leadership to that. Because of this, you can only use the best Leadership you have available to you in the unit (BRB FAQ p. 5).
So, I wouldn't be able to use SiN, but rather, the 7 that the Grey Seer has, as if he was standing alone?
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SkavenInAZ
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Correct.
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WoollyMammoth
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Stormvermin
Death Snipes are one of the most common spells and the most common cause of confusion across all the boards.

According to the errata the highest Ld in the group is the "unmodified Ld" and you don't use IP unless otherwise stated. The errata then goes on to contradict itself and say that IP is used when calculating Spirit Leech.

Basically the leadership of the model, or the guy standing next to him, is unmodified. This is the natural bravery of battle. For spells, the natural bravery extends to the IP of the General.

(Whats odd is that Skaven numbers grant a natural kind of bravery in the same way, so I'm not sure why that would not have a natural effect on all leadership).

Then there are "unnatural" modifiers. Doom & Darkness, vampires Aura of Dark Majesty, Heavens Iceshard Blizzard, Portents of Verminous Doom. These are all unnatural modifiers. This also includes Strength in Numbers, and I would argue that the Banner of Discipline would not increase unmodified as well. The unmodified Ld of a Grey Sear is always 7 (unless Queek is nearby to give him 8).

But as SkavenInAz said, just take at least 2 MR with your Grey Sear so you don't have to worry about death snipes. This circumvents the issue with Strength in Numbers. On a bell, the Sear has a 2+ to snipes by default.

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Nurglitch IX
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From the FAQ:

pg 5
 
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise.
Pg 10
 
Q: Do units benefit from their General’s Inspiring Presence for the purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or Okkam’s Mindrazor? (p107)
A: Yes.
pg 13
 
Q: If the General is in a unit with the Standard of Discipline will he gain +1 Leadership and then be able to pass it onto his unit (because he is in it) as well as other units in range of the Inspiring Presence special rule? (Reference)
A: Yes.


From the Skaven FAQ
Quote:
 
Page 33 -- Strength in Numbers.
Change the second sentence of the first paragraph to "Units with the Strength in Numbers special rule add their current rank bonus to their Leadership value for any Leadership test."
Page 33 -- Strength in Numbers.
Change the second sentence in the fourth paragraph to "Any bonus from the ranks of the General's unit is not passed on to units within his Inspiring Presence range."

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scratchydoom
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Seer
SkavenInAZ
25th September 2014 - 12:41 PM
Unfortunately, Skaven don't get Strength in Numbers from Spirit Leech:

BRB p. 10
 
Leadership Tests: To take a Leadership test, roll 2D6. If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership value, then the test has been passed.


Spirit Leech's rules do not say take a Leadership test. Instead, you roll a D6 and add your current unmodified Leadership to that. Because of this, you can only use the best Leadership you have available to you in the unit (BRB FAQ p. 5). In addition, as this isn't a Leadership test, you can't use a re-roll from your Battle Standard Bearer.

As such, your characters are likely to be Leadership 7 at best (without the Standard of Discipline in the unit that's being targeted) for Spirit Leech.

A few things you can do to help against this. Put all the characters in 1 unit. This allows them to all use the LD7 from a Seer or Warlord. Then add a Magic Resistance token onto one of the models. This (combined with any Ward Saves on the characters) will let you get a Ward Save of up to 2+ against any damage from the spell.

and then you get dwellers bellowed and rage quit.... haha
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TrueLancer
Grey Seer
It's one of those issues caused by sloppy writing and old books conflicting with new. There is a lot that wasn't taken into consideration when the Skaven Changes Document was written (and it, like many other documents, hasn't been updated in AGES). The Skaven special rules are a bit busted, as well as lots of stuff in the BRB.

Just sad, really.

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Dazzle
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Clanrat
Nurglitch IX
25th September 2014 - 05:47 PM
From the Skaven FAQ
Quote:
 
Page 33 -- Strength in Numbers.
Change the second sentence of the first paragraph to "Units with the Strength in Numbers special rule add their current rank bonus to their Leadership value for any Leadership test."
Page 33 -- Strength in Numbers.
Change the second sentence in the fourth paragraph to "Any bonus from the ranks of the General's unit is not passed on to units within his Inspiring Presence range."

To put some new fuel into the discussion, having just (2 months ago) bought a skaven army book, I could not resist to check what SiN says.

It reads: "add their current rank bonus to their leadership value for any leadership-based test."

Notice the word "based".

IMHO Spirit Leech is a "leadership-based" test.

-Dazzle

Who runs away lives to fight another day!
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SkavenInAZ
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Bounty's info (which you quoted) replaced that text. Find the FAQ here
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