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Cannon Confusion
Topic Started: 18th September 2014 - 04:20 AM (258 Views)
WoollyMammoth
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Stormvermin
never mind i just read that everything in the path and the final template are a hit. I just wasted an entire game thinking only the template at the end causes a hit.

:wacko:



Edited by WoollyMammoth, 18th September 2014 - 04:43 AM.
Skaven Army
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Didimus
Stormvermin
Yeah... the WLC is a little wonky. The '10" from the back' rule still applies if you are only trying to hit a single model, but if you are trying to get the template to land on some troops, you are better off aiming 12" in front of the center of the unit you are aiming at. I am fairly sure I saw some diagrams on this forum explaining how to use the WLC, but I am too tired to look it up now. It had pretty pictures and everything.
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Nurglitch IX
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They're mine, and they're slightly off. I built them on the assumption that you'd be shooting at 90 degree angles.

The numbers were saying 12" from center of multi-model units.

http://s6.zetaboards.com/The_UnderEmpire/topic/8799334/1
Edited by Nurglitch IX, 18th September 2014 - 06:25 AM.
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WoollyMammoth
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Stormvermin
very cool - that is what I was wondering about.
Skaven Army
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Saniles
Warlord
what is this 10" from the back thing? I missed something in the BRB didn't I...
- Saniles

I imagine that everyday the Great Horned Rat says to the Council of Thirteen... Good night council. Good work. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.
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snowblizz
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Ph.D.
Saniles
18th September 2014 - 02:01 PM
what is this 10" from the back thing? I missed something in the BRB didn't I...
No...

It's player shorthand really. A cannon shot will always travel between 2-10 beyond the point you target and then bounce another 2-10 forward.

10" from the back is mathematically speaking the most likely point to ensure a hit in most cases since you don't know exactly where the ball lands. It means only the extremely short bounces will miss the model and even thoguh you roll an initla high you still hit.

But it is based on being 90 to the target and hitting single model (which is why you measure form the back, as you don't need to know the width of the unit).
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Saniles
Warlord
Got it. Ok. I had seen it a few times in the last few days so I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything else. I know I used to jack up cannon fire not so long ago, so I wanted to check. The best way I understood it was the lollipop description following the bounce. I usually measure 6" from the center of the target assuming I'm aiming dead on, and based on my rolls that usually works out for me.
- Saniles

I imagine that everyday the Great Horned Rat says to the Council of Thirteen... Good night council. Good work. I'll most likely kill you in the morning.
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snowblizz
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Saniles
18th September 2014 - 05:06 PM
Got it. Ok. I had seen it a few times in the last few days so I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything else. I know I used to jack up cannon fire not so long ago, so I wanted to check. The best way I understood it was the lollipop description following the bounce. I usually measure 6" from the center of the target assuming I'm aiming dead on, and based on my rolls that usually works out for me.
Remember the "lollipop template" makes the calculations slightly different than regular cannons. Since it's really only the initial bounce that can overshoot, whereas the Skaven WLC wants to aplce the centre of the template over as many model as possible.

And shooting at a single target and a unit is also different, 10" from the back really only applies to hitting a single target, rather than say e.g. a deep bus.
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Nurglitch IX
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^ This.

When shooting at a single model you can ignore the lolli, it's just a line with an extra 1.5" at the end.

But when you have a multi-model unit, you want to END in the center of the unit as often as possible. Because if you miss 1-3 models on the bounce, but template 21, who cares, right?

Also, the weird Strength of the shot means that you're typically going to want to aim short, Consider this table:
Distance From 'target' pointnumber of shots that hit% odds of a hitUnder Templates**Avg S of hit*S2 shots that hitS2 SweetSpot**S4 shots that hitS4 SweetSpot**S6 shots that hitS6 SweetSpot**S8 shots that hitS8 SweetSpot**S10 shots that hitS10 SweetSpot**
2513.80%0611111
3513.80%16111111
41027.70%16212222
51027.70%362221222
61438.80%26.32131333
71438.80%56.322323133
81747.20%36.421314144
91747.20%76.4223242414
101952.70%46.8213141515
111952.70%86.8223242525
121541.60%57.31121314151
131541.60%87.31122324251
141027.70%5811213142
151027.70%6811223241
16616.60%48.6112132
17616.60%48.6112231
1838.30%39.31122
1938.30%29.31121
2012.70%21012
2112.70%11011
Fizzle513.80%10111111
EXPLODE!616.60% Dev --------------------

* Hit's will always be whole numbers; true averages require 30+ result sets to 'balance' This is less of a score, and more of a scale.
**This isn't exact. 3" template goes 1.5" in either direction.
sweet spot graphic


When you go Short, you're more likely to hit, but all the hits are lower strength. When you go long the odds of hitting go way down, but the hits are all super hard.

***MUTATE:: Minor Table Update froinlaven ***Re-Mutate: Even more table edits. think I'm done now...
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Edited by Nurglitch IX, 18th September 2014 - 08:28 PM.
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WoollyMammoth
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Stormvermin
great chart, ty

It doesn't seem to take into account the length of the unit (obviously its easier to hit 7 ranks of infantry than 1 rank of ogres). Is it varied based on various average unit sizes?

It looks like 10.5"-11" is the "sweet spot" for hitting the target when aiming at it center This is very interesting when you compare it to the standard "10" from back" system.

For example, lets say you target the back of a base of 3 ranks of ogres. If you aimed at the back thats 60mm (2.36") forward from the back of the units base, which would actually be 7.7" from the center, and according to the chart, this is not optimal.

I kept missing with the template when shooting 10" from the back. I think choosing 11" from the center is a much better bet, and I'll be testing this in my games.
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Nurglitch IX
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The chart just tells you how far from "target point" you can expect hits. It's up to you to decide where you want to put it. If you know you want 11" in the bus, then pick where in the bus you want it, measure back 11" twards your cannon, and declare that your target point.
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Priesmal
Stormvermin
What I've been doing is 12" from the back. Seems to work fairly well. I get a few that fall short, but when it hits I usually have the force (Strength) I need.
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