| Wood Elves; Who's played against 'em, and how'd it go? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 25th July 2014 - 01:40 AM (1,425 Views) | |
| Priesmal | 28th August 2014 - 01:26 PM Post #16 |
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Stormvermin
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Turn to the Army for advice on how to deal with a mobile army. It starts in the setup phase of the game. Where you place terrain is MUCH more important when you are trying to deal with fast movers. Impassable terrain is your friend. If you can manage, try to tie in one piece of terrain to another. The second part is deployment. Play "denied flank". Start in a corner and work your way forward along the board edge. There's a couple other options, but I'm out of time. Just remember, when he's playing the mobility game, you take away his movement before you even start your turn.
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| Nurglitch IX | 28th August 2014 - 03:15 PM Post #17 |
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Avatar by count zero
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I have the points calculations around here somewhere for "Fill the entire deployment area with Slaves." It's actually pretty cheep. I think the biggest reason no one's ever done 4 blocks of 20x5 slaves though is that assembling 400 slaves is not a sane task, and then you need to PAINT them. |
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| Mathusala0 | 29th August 2014 - 12:31 AM Post #18 |
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The Evil Underlord
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Except theres n way to keepthe amount of slaves your talking about inside your leadership bubble, he'll just fire one unit at a time at each unit outside the bubble do 5 wounds easilly and break the units (leadership 4 will flee instantly). Enter mass panic and your whole army is shattered in one turn. Big blocks of 50 with clanrats ir frenzy troops on the flanks to pin the elves in. it works just as well as it used to. |
![]() The Glossary of Common Underempire Lingo The Skaven Guide to competitive list building (8th Edition) The Skaven Castle Formation | |
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| dermal_plating | 29th August 2014 - 06:06 AM Post #19 |
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Clanrat
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Sure they can cause panic chains, but if hes firing his 17 point true flight glade guard at your slaves and not your wheel/hpa then you're already winning. Also this makes him wait to create gaps before he can move his fast cav effectively. Re leadership bubble, actually multiple 20 wide units are incredibly easy to keep in general/bsb range. A bigger problem is that he can easily create gaps in the slaves for the fast cav to go through. The theory isn't really about creating an unbreakable mass, more so keeping him occupied and controlling the table, forcing him to choose between fighting the slaves or heading through the gap defended by nasties. Once the wild riders or sisters bunker get behind your lines it can be a real pain in the ass to deal with. Sure you can castle, but then he's controlling the table space and its hard to deny him a flank charge. I'm not even really claiming this is a good idea, just trying to work out some options. I think heavy shooting/magic skaven lists are a relatively good match-up against welves. They will shoot off a lot of our stuff, but can they deal with multiple units of jezzails, 2 cannons and 2+ warplightning spam engineers? |
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| Nurglitch IX | 29th August 2014 - 04:36 PM Post #20 |
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Avatar by count zero
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hmm. 20 slaves is 400mm, or 15.75 ". So yeah, that's outside of Bubble, unless you're on a Bell. The bubble is 15 models wide. So 2 units of 13, with 2 units of 20 would be able to stay in bubble. ![]() That's only a 55" frontage though, so you're 16" (20 models) short of complete wall. |
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| Didimus | 29th August 2014 - 05:47 PM Post #21 |
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Stormvermin
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....unless you make 1 MASSIVE unit of slaves!!! |
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| dermal_plating | 29th August 2014 - 11:43 PM Post #22 |
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Clanrat
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BOOM! Your opponent would hate you, but who cares, they're playing dancy avoidy wood elves which is one of the most annoying armies. In all seriousness, I guess you've shown that the leadership bubble can't be relied on for such a spread of units, but it might not matter if he has to get through 2 layers of slaves. Charging wild riders will wipe out a unit per turn, but theres no overrun. I was thinking more of this kind of setup. ............dart...............dart..............................dart....................dart.......................................... .............................................................................................................................................. sssssssssssssssssss...sssssssssssssssssss...sssssssssssssssssss.................................... .................sssssssssssssssssss...sssssssssssssssssss...................................................... ..............................................................dart.......................................................................... .......DW.....................................GENERAL BUNKER.......................................DW.................. .................................WLC.........................................................WLC..................................... The darts block charges and/or harass the archers, meaning he/she has to waste arrows on them. Then he/she has to either smash through the slaves or go through the gap where the random movers are waiting to counter charge. If he wants to kill the general he has no direct route aside from those horrible horrible birds. But I'm thinking a rat dart infront of the general could block any snipe attempts from KB hawks. Edited by dermal_plating, 29th August 2014 - 11:46 PM.
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| Mathusala0 | 30th August 2014 - 02:32 AM Post #23 |
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The Evil Underlord
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Why would they not get overrun? Exploding aves still grant an overrun as if the unit had been wiped out. And as foe shooting at the hellpit and doomwheel, it works both ways, if your slaves are in the bubble, the hpa and doomwheels are either behind them in less effective positions, or outside the bubble themselves, the elves can cause a panic chain through them almost just as easilly. Still advicate for larger, more effective slave walls, you dont want slaves to break, you want them to catch so you can pin the elves in place. Bounty, caculate a frontage of 2 units of 50 in horde and 2 in steadfast (5 wide) with a bell. Thats how you pull this stunt off. 18" bubnle is massive |
![]() The Glossary of Common Underempire Lingo The Skaven Guide to competitive list building (8th Edition) The Skaven Castle Formation | |
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| Grey-Clad Stranger | 30th August 2014 - 03:52 PM Post #24 |
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Chieftain
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Great read on the discussion thus far fellas. So after reading more on the new releases (Nagash), his spells and such it seems to me that the combined undead is a no brainer way to go vs the WEs. Not to say that with a little clan Skrye ingenuity, and some Eshin cleverness we could stave WEs off, it just seems to me that the "GW army escalation" mindset has already kicked in in preparation for the new edition. |
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| JohnnyH5 | 31st August 2014 - 04:16 AM Post #25 |
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I may be able to help you in regards to Wood Elves, they are my current army and I have played around 20 games so far and I know that I'm no expert in them I like to think I have a little bit of experience. I'll briefly talk about the models I use. Remember what I'm about to say/write is situational and will not work all the time.... Glade Riders are a good unit. The ambush rule my be a handicap in some peoples minds but not in mine. I like to bring a unit of 8 glade riders into my opponents rear, equipped with true flight arrows and let them go to work, may not kill a lot but will annoy your opponent to no ends and may even force him to divert a unit or two to deal with them. My favourite moment was against an ogre kingdoms player who chased my glade riders around for three turns doing no damage whatsoever. Remember that the Wood Elf player does not have to bring the unit on in turn two so be careful your opponent could bring them on when it is more beneficial for him. Wildriders - Don't let them charge you period. They hit like a ton of bricks and will do a lot of damage to any unit they touch. They have to destroy the unit on the charge or they are in very deep trouble in the following turns as they're really bad in melee and like most wood elves they have no staying power. In saying that I usually soften up my target unit with one or two rounds of shooting and usually a phase of magic. So if you see your opponent show a bit of extra attention to one of your units and his Wildriders are hanging around like a bad smell, prepare for a charge. Glade Guard - Above average bowmen but they come with a hefty points cost, common formation will be a 10 man unit, musician with either Hagbane or Trueflight. I like hagbane personally, high toughness target, meh.... Eternal Guard - Although I have 35 of these guys they have only ever been in combat once and then they were pretty good being in a forest but outside of one I wouldn't go near combat. They get the High Elf spear rule and Dark Elves re-roll ones in combat whilst they fight in a forest, and they have always strike first so if you don't have ASF you may be in a world of hurt. Deepwood Scouts - Love these guys, units of 10, musician and Hagbane arrows. Scouts and Skirmishers, up in your opponents face turn 1 doing damage from the get go. I field 3 units of these guys and placing them on the field last is just great, place them down in front of your opponents dangerous unit, hopefully win first turn and watch the arrows fly, once again high toughness, meh... Great Eagles - Good for redirections, taking on solo miniatures and getting in the way of an important charge for a turn or maybe two. I also use them to take out warmachines, which in my case rarely works but it stops said warmachine from firing for a turn or two. Treemen - These guys are a bit of a hit and miss for me. Some games they are absolutely brutal in melee and shooting and other games they die to a stiff breeze. I'm starting to leave these guys at home and taking other units. Waywatchers - Crème le crème of the wood elves - They can't take enchanted arrows but they have hawk-eyed archer. Single shot with no armour saves or multiple shots. I always take a unit of 10 in every list, my opponents have learned to take this unit out as quick as possible or suffer the consequences. My opponents don't boast of how good their uber units are anymore with their 1+ armour saves etc..., well atleast not in hearing range of me atleast. Spellweavers - I like these ladies, level four any lore. I like High Magic at the moment as I like to get off small spells to collect wound tokens for when my Eternal Guard eventually get into combat. Beast magic is also a good lore for wood elves. If you go up against a player with two spellweavers who have both High Magic and Dark Magic, reach over and slap the taste out of his mouth (only joking), this combo is what a lot of people are taking to tournaments, well in my area atleast as one is defensive an the other is offensive and they complement each other somewhat. But I totally stink at the magic phase and I have yet to get any benefit out of this combo. Waystalkers - Some people like them and some don't, I'm in a love hate relationship with mine at the moment. Sometimes they work and other times they don't. Good for singling out characters in units (Sniper) and that's about it, some people give them the bow of loren for two sniper shots, but that combo is falling out of favour at the moment. Glade Lord - Only used him in a 4000pt game and he did what I wanted him to do, didn't get into combat and used his high BS to annoy the hell out of my opponent, especially with the Hail of Doom Arrow (3D6 shots S4) Glade Captain - Use these guys as the BSB with the Moonstone for movement tricks. I don't use any of the other units so I can't really talk about them sorry.... In regards to magic items (That I use mostly): 1. Enchanted Arrows - You will mostly see Hagbane and Trueflight. Hagbane for the high toughness and long distant targets and trueflight for the units that are moving about all the time (Glade Riders). 2. Acorn of the Ages - The chance of getting an extra three forests of your choice is something too good to pass up, some wood elf players don't play it, others do. I do as I'm currently playing against Ogre Kingdoms, Warriors of Chaos and Vampire Counts so I need all the help I can get prior to being forced into combat. 99% of the time the forests will be Venom forests that will affect your army and not the wood elves, so think before your charge a unit that is in a forest or you will get a nasty surprise, especially eternal guard. 3. Book of Asur - This is a good item, our magic users already get a +1 to cast whilst in wood, having another +1 is icing on the cake. Having our level 4 casting with a 6+ is pretty good. 4. Feedback Scroll - I have used this twice now and both times I have managed to take atleast two wounds off my opponents casters each time and now they are very wary about casting a spell with a large amount of dice. 5.Moonstone of the Hidden Ways - This little beauty is my get out of jail free card, I try to lure my opponents uber deathstar unit in close to me and at the end of my magic phase I teleport away to another forest leaving said unit hopefully in a precarious position. This item will only worked once or twice before my opponents became a little wiser The army lists that I usually play are the hit and run (ambush) army, I have read that some people are using combat armies and are having some success but in my opinion that may be due to good dice rolling and the experience of their oponents. Some of my opponents hate playing against me and others don't care either way. I had one opponent complain that I wouldn't commit to melee with his Ogre Kingdoms army and I gave him look that one gives to a child who had just said something really silly. The vast majority of my opponents realise that Wood elves are exactly that Elves and will be knocked down in a stiff breeze and they change their gaming style to suit the situation, which some have thanked me for bringing such an army as they now have to think about building their lists now when we game and not using the same list over and over again. Last but not least, if you ignore everything I have said please remember this - It's only a game, don't be too serious and most importantly have fun.... |
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| dermal_plating | 3rd September 2014 - 11:53 PM Post #26 |
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Clanrat
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You're right. For some reason I thought exploding squigs and slaves prevented an overrun, FAQ says no. Though this still doesn't alter the main point of this slave net theory. Big blocks of steadfast slaves won't be able to control the table space so you get the same old problem of fast cav encircling you and attacking where they want. Cornering is obviously an option but I like to control the table. The only way to see is to try it. Which I will do and report back next time I play Welfs.
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| CapAmr05 | 4th September 2014 - 04:51 PM Post #27 |
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I don't think that's entirely true, the Dice Roll to come on the board starting on turn 2, isn't mentioned as being optional, the text makes the dice roll to come on the board sound mandatory, you have to roll and if you get a 3+ they show up. The Dice controls when they show up, the player controls where they show up. (Page 79)
You're not wrong, it used to be in the FAQ, but it was written out in the next FAQ update. --Cap Edited by CapAmr05, 4th September 2014 - 04:53 PM.
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| Priesmal | 4th September 2014 - 07:13 PM Post #28 |
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Stormvermin
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So I played in a doubles tourney his past weekend, partnered with Ogre Kingdoms. Our last match was against double WElf... It went horribly. We faced three units of Wildriders. My ogre buddy was double charged and they eradicated him in no time. I didn't have the time to shoot them enough to weaken them. They are way too fast for how hard they hit. I've no solution to them other than to say: Slaves. On a side note, every roll I had for the first turn went wrong. Every weapon I had misfired. PWM, misfire 6: No shooting this turn. WLC one, misfired and spun to shoot off the table. WLC two: Misfired, spinning to shoot WLC 1 (and destroyed it) and a huge chunk of my slaves. Gutter runners refused to show up until I was tabled (my opponent still had stuff on the table so we decided we could see if they decided to show once the other rats were gone). The only bright note was my turn two, I had a perfect shot on a treeman showing up in our deployment. But it was Str 2. Rolled a six to hit and did 6 wounds.
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| WoollyMammoth | 6th September 2014 - 12:34 AM Post #29 |
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Stormvermin
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Reading this post is funny as a wood elf player. Wood elves win through tactics, and after 10 years of having the hardest army to play with, veteran WE players are going to be very advanced generals. If you know how to counter their tactics, you can beat them. Hopefully you are playing a WE all-comers list and not one tailored to beat Skaven. If playing an anti-Skaven list, invite that WE player to a game and pull out a WoC army instead, and you'll table him quick. Poison arrows will hit you fast. Probably about 3-6 wounds on warmachines per turn. If they brought 10-14+ Deepwood Scouts, a 3-wound war machine is dead immediately. If they did not, and especially if you have more than 2 war machines, they will struggle a bit, trying to hit them across the board. If you want to go war-machine heavy, wiping out the poison is top priority. Usually there is 10-20 trueflight. If there are more that is very odd, as that list is not balanced and will lose hard to all the T4 high armor armies who don't care about S3 arrows, regardless of how many are hitting them. As mentioned, terrain is key. Impassible terrain and even forests can mess with their shooting. Let them have their forests where they want them and ensure a giant impassable terrain in the middle of the board. WE will never go in rivers or swamps, so place them to limit their speed. The most important tactic is target selection. Treemen are tanks. Don't focus on a treemen unless you have a boatload of S5-6 for him. If you have S5-6 flaming attacks, that is your best bet. Nothing else, (even a ton of S4 flaming) will bother it. Otherwise, ignore him the best you can. He is unable to disrupt you on his own so some slaves can probably hang out with him the whole game. (Personally, I love them and never leave home without one). If there's no treeman, that probably means 20 waywatchers (the other scouts). That means 40 shots per turn, so these are top priority. Scouts will try to deploy somewhere on the sides of the board - don't let them. They cannot deploy within 12" of any of your units, so spread out and don't leave them any room. You can also place units on either end, staring down into these "sweet spots" that they hope to deploy their Waywatchers - this way, if they lose first turn, you are in place to charge them. Even the threat of this is too much for them. They have 2 S3 attacks each and ASF, but are T3 with no saves whatsoever. The other main thing to not do - DO NOT attack the mage bus. Ignore it. This is your last priority. Wipe out all the glade guard and waywatchers, who have zero armor and zero saves. When all the GG & WW are dead, its very hard to lose the game. If you get to turn 3 without any dead archers, you probably lost. One note - if they are relying only on their magic resistance and 4+ bus to protect their wiz, she will be extremely susceptible to any sniping, especially non-magical sniping. Sit in forests. the +1 rank and re-rolling 1s to wound is not a big deal as elves are afraid of combat regardless. This means the mages are blocked out of their +1 to cast, and no goofy moonstone business. A note about moonstone, archers can't fire after teleporting (having count as marched), so this will likely be on an infantry unit the mage bus or - If you see a character join the Waywatchers - then def get ready for some moonstone teleporting. If you block a forest so that they can't place the unit wholly within the forest, they cannot teleport there. Wild Riders are going to hit you, and they are going to hit hard. Make sure they hit you in the front. If you survive the initial impact, they are each T3 with 5+/6++ and so melt to just about anything. If you survive to round 2, they are done for, with their strength and attacks reduced, and they wont survive your second attack. Their main job is to blow a hole much bigger than their point value, so just do your best to keep that hole as small as possible. If you want to outsmart them, get them to attack something with T6, as this often results in a disappointing result for them. That's about it. All the archers are T3 with no saves, so bring whatever you can to erase them. If you put a big hurt on their archers, they don't have much to rely on other than a killer magic phase. A level 4 with staff of sorcery (+1 to dispel, new Arcane item per Errata) is very useful, as well are anything else you can do to stay ahead in the magic phase. I'll have better info as I learn the Skaven book Edited by WoollyMammoth, 6th September 2014 - 12:41 AM.
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| SkavenInAZ | 7th September 2014 - 03:10 PM Post #30 |
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I don't agree with this statement.. I understand why a Wood Elf player would say it, but a few points. - It's going to take a billion arrows to kill all of our models, so we can suffer through arrow fire a lot longer than most. - There's only 2 units in the whole Wood Elf army that can devastate a unit -- Wild Riders and Level 4s. Plus, with the opponents level 4 dead, much easier to force through the magic missiles you need. Now, I'm not saying you have to move everything towards the mage bunker (because you'll likely never catch it). But, taking the occasional shot when it's there? Absolutely. - Keeping pressure on the bunker means the opponent has to think about where to move it -- giving an opportunity for a mistake to be made, rather than letting him park it where it's safe and blasting away. Just my opinion. |
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Just remember, when he's playing the mobility game, you take away his movement before you even start your turn.







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