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New to Skaven vs Lizardmen
Topic Started: 19th August 2013 - 11:10 PM (3,567 Views)
Neobuzzard


So i've been playing WHF since January, started with dwarfs, about a month ago i bought a 2nd hand skaven army off a friend for about $100, which was awesome cause i've wanted a skaven army for about 7 years now (back when i started 40k). i've only played it twice, and both of those game i was teaching someone how to play vs my dwarfs. So wed, i have a 3000 point game vs my local gw employee's lizardmen and i'm not sure what to expect or what to bring. I've been toying with a few ideas, read a few posts on list building for skaven (really like the bulldozer list) but wanted to get some feed back. i havent come up with a list but wanted to see what you guys, who are much more experienced than i am with skaven, with the models i have. i'll list everything out, and start working on a list, but any and all input is very much appreciated.

2 Greyseers on foot
Screaming bell
2 Warlords (from Island of Blood)
1 BsB
2 Engineers
3 Assassins
Plague Priest
Ikkit Claw
Queek Headtaker
Lord Skrolk
Deathmaster Snikch
6 Rat ogres 3 packmasters
80 slaves
50 clanrats w/ handwep and shield, fc
55 clanrats w/ spear and shield, fc
20x2 stormvermin w/ fc (thinking of mashing them into 1 unit of 40)
20 Plague monks /w fc
10 PCB's
10 Jezzails
23 Gutter runners
1 HPA
2 Warp lightning cannons
2 poison wind motars
2 warp fire throwers
1 Doomwheel

So for along time i've read this forum, but now that im actually playing skaven i decided to register. I've read the guide to competitive list building that Math posted, i've read the unit specific tactics posts (most of them), i just want to hear from some experienced players what to expect from new lizards and what i should do with the horde i got.
Edited by Neobuzzard, 19th August 2013 - 11:11 PM.
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Reddogfish777
Stormvermin
you lucky lucky lucky lucky lucky bastard....

seriously... you bought all that for 100 DOLLARS!!!????

if i can get over my rage and envy....

Did you get any PWGs?

I didnt see any in the list. They are great versus the monsters and cold ones yo will face.

A grey seer in any form will be necessary against a slann... and you can bet he will take one.

The doomwheel and cannons are almost an auto include despite being almost guanteed warmachine hunting fodder...

Though cause he doesnt have any real warmachines I would use the gutter runners as anti gueilla units.

BSB is a must of course... (you will probably be losing a lot of combat rounds)

I wouldnt worry about the assassins.

A plague priest would be helpful... whither and plague levelling the playing field.

Take the slaves as either a couple of small ones and a big one... or two huge ones.

PCB will go before most lizzies... and considering they are skirmishers they will be harder to hit from skinks... hit them in a flank of an engaged saurus unit and crush them in a turn.

WFT are great against skinks now they only have ld 5...

And I would seriously consider the jezzails and yes I know they wont last long... but they can easily shoot down a bastilidon... carnosaur or if lucky a stegadon in a turn.

Take the storm banner and make sure you get warpgale.

Beware of rippers... they are a new favourite and everything in a skaven army short of a doomwheel or abomb is easy pickings to them.
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Neobuzzard


Yeah, he got the army as some kind of lot for like $600, got skaven, vamp, space marines, wood elves, a few ogre kingdom pieces, a small warriors of chaos army and some other random stuff and had no interest in the skaven so i got really really lucky. And no, there were no globadeer's, though i wish there had been. I made a test list, but im not really happy with it, i think im going to drop a few things. Mind you i'm trying to stick to wysiwyg rules, and i didnt assemble most of the army.

Queek
Seer: warpstone tokens x2, skalm, dispell scroll, bell
Chieftan: BSB Halberd, Armor of silvered steel
Engineer: lvl1 wiz, brass orb
Clan rats x 50: FC and shields (probs the bell unit)
Clan rats x 50: FC shields and spears, poison wind mortar
Queek upgraded Storm vermin x 30: FC, razor standard, poison wind mortar
Jezzails x 10: Sharpshooter (had 13 points left over so gave the upgrade)
Plague Monks x20: FC, Plague Standard
Slaves x 80
HPA
Lightning Cannon x 2

total: 2997

knowing my opponent, he's going to bring at least one named character. I like Queek a lot, but i think instead of him i'll bring a warlord w/ sword of might, shield, tali of perservation, and crown of command. he'll come in cheaper, the SV wont cost as much w/o the queek upgrade, and with the warlord they'll be stubborn, and maybe add the doom wheel or the gutter runners. i didnt notice that PCB's had skirmish, i think that makes them a lot more viable and would consider them too.
Edited by Neobuzzard, 20th August 2013 - 04:55 AM.
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Reddogfish777
Stormvermin
brass orb is pretty cheeky... but fair enough... it will be funny if you land it on his temple guard unit... remember lizard units like stegadons now have a split profile so while an ancient steg has iniative 1 or 2 the skinks give him I 4 or 5...

Also would be worth considering a pair of warlords instead of queek... though he would be fantastic in a challenge one warlord with a fellblade could end a stegadon in 2 strikes and anyother non-ward saved lizard for that matter...
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Neobuzzard


I kinda want to keep the warlord on the cheap side, since the bell and queek push the 25% limit for lords, and a fellblade would be great, but i'm kind of against putting something so expensive on a character that will most likely die in a challenge, esp since i want the warlord for his leadership bubble, not to try and win challenges. As far as i know, most of the bigger lizards have low initiative, so i thought the brass orb would be a good idea, and making the engineer a wizard to help me dispel if my seer goes down since i know the seer/bell will be a very high priority target for him (also why i wanted the warlord as my general).

Oh and I did buy the BsB myself so its like i have $120 invested in the army, if that makes you feel any better, Red.

And we're playing 3000 points b/c the store is starting a storm of magic event, and i wanted to get used to playing skaven at such a large point value, and i was asked to join the skaven team.
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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

Queek
Seer: warpstone tokens x2, skalm, dispell scroll, bell
drop the tokens, he already comes with d3 no need for more.
Chieftan: BSB Halberd, Armor of silvered steel
get a storm banner, make it fit into this list as lizard flyers and shooting will both get shut down by it, and as razordactals are a prime favorite in the meta this is almost a must have banner.
Engineer: lvl1 wiz, brass orb
Clan rats x 50: FC and shields (probs the bell unit)
Clan rats x 50: FC shields and spears, poison wind mortar
drop spears.
Queek upgraded Storm vermin x 30: FC, razor standard, poison wind mortar
Jezzails x 10: Sharpshooter (had 13 points left over so gave the upgrade)
not worth it, better to drop these and get a doomwheel, more effective, more durable, overall just a better option.
Plague Monks x20: FC, Plague Standard
to small of a unit, make it bigger! minimum 30
Slaves x 80
break down into 2 units, give them some music, maybe bump up to 50s.
HPA
Lightning Cannon x 2

otherwise not too bad. try and squeeze in a few more models right now as your running a little on the low side.
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Bjork42
Clanrat
I agree with mathusala, however I would take out Queek as well and replace him with a warlord with a shield and the fellblade, which costs significantly less and will do more damage

But that's just my opinion, if you feel like using queek, then use him :D
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Neobuzzard


Made some changes, I like this set up a bit more than the first one, but it still need some refinement, imo. if i didnt change unit size, its because im using what i have (like adding 10 more plague monks)

Warlord: shield, Fellblade
Seer: Bell, skalm, dispel scroll
Chieftan: BsB, halberd, silver steel armor
Engineer: lvl1 wiz, brass orb
Clan rats x 50: FC and shields
Clan rats x 50: FC shields and spears, poison wind mortar
Storm vermin x 30: FC, storm banner, poison wind mortar
Gutter runners x 7: slings, poisoned weps
Gutter runners x 7: slings, poisoned weps
Gutter runners x 7: slings, poisoned weps, deathrunner
Slaves x 40: music
Slaves x 40: music
Doomwheel
HPA
Lightning Cannon x 2

total: 2999

Not sure how i feel about the storm banner as it hurts my shooting as well. Thought that maybe a bunch of gutter runners with poison running around might help deal with any dinosaurs he brings, or if i infiltrate them, cause him to split up part of his army. I really intended to use the warlord for his Ld bubble, but everyone keeps saying "fellblade" and i have been looking for a reason to use it. I know it was stated to bring the storm banner on the BsB, but i really feel like he needs a better save, though maybe tali of pres would be better. If my BsB uses the skaven valor rule, does he still keep the benefits of being a BsB?

Also, what should i look out for in his potential list? I know he likes the new bastiladon with the Mayan death ray thing, and some1 stated that the flyers are really good in current meta, but what else are lizards commonly bringing to the table that i should be aware of?
Edited by Neobuzzard, 20th August 2013 - 07:07 PM.
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Reddogfish777
Stormvermin
With the amount of shooting lizards have they can put wood elves to shame... and most importantly... almost all of it is poisoned...

If a model needs more than a 6+ to hit then they automatically dont get poisoned....

this means a storm banner will mean all your gribblies will be pretty safe while the banner is working...

Also your gutter runners can put up a decent fight... if he fields lots of skink skirmishers you will definately be able to paste a few units in combat with them.
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SkavenDan
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Doomwheel Fanatic
Your still not particularly safe now that they have Hand of Glory on a big unit of skinks will completely ignore the storm banner.
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Grey seer White Paw
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Warlord of 7th Tactics!
If you cannot get the plague monks to 30, i'd drop them entirely, as anything less and your just giving the points away.

The storm banner can go on the stormvermin if you want your bsb protected (I run mine cheap, halberd and shield).

Fell blade is so awesome in this matchup due to the fact that the warlord goes before everything in the lizardman army except chakax. Also due to warlord and grey seer being the same Ld the warlord can go be a monster/character killer and the seer can provide the Ld bubble.

The jezails may work, but I would split them into units of 4 (that is if you are not running double doom wheel).

The gutter runners look great on paper, but against lizards they are going to be taking a hell of a lot of poisoned shots themselves, they are going to be very short lived.
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Grendel rat
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Warlord
I find the lizard unit that hits me the hardest is the salamanders. Get them before they get you. My lizard opponent will max out on salamanders then burn baby burn my bunker,bell or furnace unit. Then you have saurus o temple gaurd to deal with... Storm banner is worth shutting your shooting down to get into combat with those salamanders.
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Neobuzzard


So i'm playing the same guy again today but we're playing 2000 points instead. I used the list i posted above in our last game and i didn't fair too badly imo, seeing as how it was my first game with skaven vs a real opponent (the 2 other times i played my skaven it was vs my dwarf army to teach some friends how to play fantasy). He ended up winning cause we called the game on turn 3 so the store could close, but i was in a pretty good position, though i learned i need to protect the flanks of my clan rat trains better (what should i do/use to protect my flanks). I focused so much fire on his temple guard that he only had 5 left when he charged, but it was the block of 6wide x 6deep saurus warriors that won him the day. With him, it felt kind of like Jurassic Park, though turn 2 my doom wheel killed one of his big dinosaurs, and my lightning cannon took a rider off another big one. I felt overly scared of the 2 bastiladons he had, but honestly they didnt make him any points except for when one charged a unit of gutter runners., and he didn't get a single spell off all game, though i did manage to get the dreaded 13th off w/o IF and he couldnt dispell it (lost 13 temple guard to it). My only real regret, with the mission we rolled, my bell unit and warlord unit ended up in reserves, and my fell blade (that didnt hurt my warlord once) didn't have a chance to make in into combat except to kill his little flyer things, but again at the end of turn 3, he could have eaten a hole in the saurus block, since him and his storm vermin would have had a nice flank charge on them.

So what i learned: just like in jurassic park, if it looks like a herbivore, leave it be, carnivorous dinosaurs are scary, but easy to wound. skinks and ripperdactles must die at all costs, slaan can be scary therefor dont let him cast magic. Storm banner is amazing and if it could i would let it mother my children.
Edited by Neobuzzard, 25th August 2013 - 12:14 PM.
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Reddogfish777
Stormvermin
yep.... that sounds about right. :D
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Neobuzzard


played again today, did much better protecting my flanks but starting out.. Made a big mistake my first two turns, and started playing reactively instead of forcing his hand, it ended up costing my the right side of the table. After my second turn, i left my right side to die, and started focusing on the center and left of the table, and crushed what he had left. Again, the storm banner saved my life for the first 3 turns, his three units of skinks couldnt do anything except move towards my WLC's, the turn my storm banner ended he breathed a sigh of relief, then i got off howling warpgale (everyone in the store laughed for about 5 minutes). I still need to work on protecting my flanks, but in the end i ended up losing by only 200vp, and that only happened cause i decided to give him points for the bell (we forgot one of the dinosaurs that had been hitting the bell caused D3 wounds when you failed a save and my bell had 2 wounds left). again i hate ripperdactyls, skink skirmishers and temple guard, and those are the only things i really fear out of that army anymore.

I still need to learn to protect my flanks, that ended up costing me the game when i think back to it (he got a flank charge on my bell unit), and i think im going to try to use warpfire throwers next game, and see how those work out.

oh and lord kroak (w/e his name is) sucks, i hate him and his stupid mask thing, my storm vermin would have won that combat if it wasnt for that thing.
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