Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
Rat Ogre Dart; A viable way to at least use a few of the beasties on the table.
Topic Started: 23rd July 2013 - 05:44 PM (1,116 Views)
pestilicious
Clanrat
The rat ogre dart


It is not awesome, but it’s pretty good and it’s a viable way of playing with rat ogres again. Right now the only viable option seems to be 5 Rogres with a bonebreaker lord.

The dart consists of a masterbred rat ogre, an ordinary rat ogre and a handler in a bus formation.

MB :rogre:
RO :rogre2:
_H_ :censor:

This costs 103 pts and dish out 8 str 5 attacks.

So what is the purpose of this? It is like a more expensive rat dart that packs a lot more punch!

It can clear out chaff, try to assassinate heroes, or go in and support in a combat by clipping the corner of the opponent.

Advantages:
The fact that shooting is randomised is good. It is a fairly good chance of hitting the handler leaving the Rogres intact, and it is also randomised between the Rogres themselves. So usually they take a few wounds each and still be alive.

Clearing out chaff:
They will rip apart most chaff units in close combat. Ofcourse the opponent will just elect to flee leaving them stranded. But if you have a rat dart nearby they can also declare a charge (as long as they are within 17 inches, pretty good odds). Then the chaff unit will be quite likely to run off the table. If you had tried the same with two units of rat darts the chaff unit could just have elected to hold, and probably defeated the rat darts in combat.

Assassinating heroes.
No matter where the opponents hero is, the Rat ogre dart will always hit it with full force as opposed to rat darts and chaff units from other races. If the opponent decide to challenge, then the Masterbred is still pretty scary with 5 str 5 attacks. Not good odds for a poor wizard. If the opponent decide to challenge with a unit champion then this champion will be ripped to shreds. And here is the nice part: The Rogre in the back rank still gets 3 support attacks at the hero you are trying to assassinate. And if the masterbred is in a challenge, then the unit can not strike at the Rat ogre in the back rank!

So you go into combat with +1 for charges, and any wounds you make (overkill included). The opponent is not that likely to put any wounds on you. If he decides to not go into a challenge, then your good initiative will probably see getting all 8 attacks on the opponent. And as he has to strike the masterbred only, wounds will not carry over to the ordinary Rogre. So the Rogre will be virtually immune to damage as long as the opponents troops all have the same initiative. If the masterbred goes down the Rogre gets 4 attacks at least.

Supporting in combat.
You join an existing combat and just clip the corner so only 1 enemy model can attack your Rogredart. And they will only ever take 3 wounds in the first round of combat, and dish out several high strength attacks themselves. If the Masterbred takes a few wounds in the first round of combat (or you charge in with only one wound left for instance) then he will maximum give up 1 combat resolution point, as wounds dont transfer to the ordinary Rogre.

Their good movement should enable them to get in some flank attacks as well.

Disadvantages:

Frenzy baiting. With a general nearby and the +1 leadership banner they can get ld8 at least, that keeps them in check a little easier. But if they are frenzybaited it’s usually not that bad.

If it’s chaff that flees, then tag team with a ratdart and get them far away from you.
If it’s a combat unit, try to get in some support or just try to kill heroes.

But you can also place the rat dart in front to avoid being frenzybaited.

other weaknesses:
If they ever have to take a break test, then they are screwed...

They are not that hard to kill if you really want to. A cannonball, lots of shooting or a magic missile will take them down. But that means he is not shooting at your hellpit, furnace, doomwheel or bell!

I tried two rat darts in my last tournament, and they were a great success! You know...for being rat ogres..! But they made their points back more than once, and they were a new threat that the opponent was unsure how to handle. And you just get some credit for bringing rat ogres in the first place ;) :rogre:

So I will start to bring a few of these on the tabletop... try them out yourself, see how you like them! I recommend tag teaming with a rat dart and putting them on your close flank. I will keep them just within 18 of the bell with leadership banner for a ld8.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Reddogfish777
Stormvermin
Nice idea....

Very nice... I have a few rat ogres that have some cobwebs that need some blowing off... sounds like this unit could definately do some excellent support work.

Maybe running it beside a bell unit with lord on litter on one side to give up as few attacks as possible to rank and files... with a GS and fencers blades and a tough warlord I can image winning quite a few combats against other armies anvils to break their lines.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Nurglitch IX
Member Avatar
Avatar by count zero

pestilicious
23rd July 2013 - 05:44 PM
So you go into combat with +1 for charges, and any wounds you make (overkill included). The opponent is not that likely to put any wounds on you. If he decides to not go into a challenge, then your good initiative will probably see getting all 8 attacks on the opponent. And as he has to strike the masterbred only, wounds will not carry over to the ordinary Rogre. So the Rogre will be virtually immune to damage as long as the opponents troops all have the same initiative. If the masterbred goes down the Rogre gets 4 attacks at least.
I wouldn't count on Overkill, and even if you did get it, you've got no ranks, so their rank bonus is going to equal or exceed your overkill every time.

Also, they don't *HAVE* to target the MasterBred, because he's not a Character. It's perfectly legal for anyone in base contact with the unit champion to attack the unit, and since units are pulled from the back, all the damage washes to your 2nd Rat Ogre first.

I also wonder, since this is the case, if it would apply when the challenge is in effect too, allowing them to kill the Rat Ogre and leave the MasterBred.
-img-http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a329/underempire/PRS%20Banners/2hfhshwet.jpg[/img]
This Space for Rent
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tanglewood
Warlord
Kudos for finding another tool for us to use. Will be trying this.

Bounty that isn't correct. If you're in b2b contact with a champion, you may only allocate attack against the champ, unless you have a reference from from the brb that says you can allocate hit against target not in b2b? It's common tactic to use champ to shield unit from taking heavy casualty.

I would also not knock something before trying. The fact that he said he tried it with some moderate success is worth further investigation instead of a dismissal. They may need to be some thinking involved on what you charge, he never declared that its an end all.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dwarfbane
Member Avatar
Warlord
You may have just saved the rat ogre lol ... I always take em but just cos I love what they should be instead of their actual effectiveness . I'll definitely try this though! Nobody will expect it.bwahahahahahaha
If the solution isn't 'Rat ogres' then I'm afraid there's not really a problem to start with ... :-D

W/L/D
Vampire counts 6/2/0
High elves 1/0/0
Dark elves 1/1/0
Lizardmen 0/1/1
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rageaholic
Member Avatar
Doomwheel Driver
I'm really liking the idea of this. I just wish I could find somewhere to get the points from.

M6 with a narrow frontage makes them manoeuvreable.

111 points with an extra PM and a master bred. 8 S5 attacks is nearly as many as 3 DG put out. And they are hitting back against WS4 and can't do more than 3 wounds back. They will make mincemeat of the majority of chaff units.
I really like the assassination idea too. Just make sure you challenge 1st if they have a lone champion in there so he moves to you (so your supporting attacks and following round attacks can still be against your target) and don't forget you can ignore it if he challenges with a character.

Then again you could have 6 tooled up GR or 11 PWG for similar points which I think are overall better value. They do fill a niche that skaven lack though.
Edited by Rageaholic, 31st July 2013 - 10:01 AM.
Posted ImageMy Skaven Army Diary
My Daemons of Chaos Army Diary
My Dark Elf Army Diary
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
WarriorSkaven
Clanrat
This is a great idea! I will try running them in my next game and maybe invest in more...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rein bringer of the cheese
Warlord
I've used them in the past. They suffer greatly from frenzy and or stupidity.

They have to test at 18" range. So you have to keep them in your bubble and have only a reroll-ld 7, failing about 1 in 6 times. I didn't like them. I rather use PCBs

6 PCBs is 18 re-roll to hit S5 attacks, with T-tests, at a slightly lower I.
They deal more damage, are more manouvrable, are easliy restrained from charging (by facing the other way), are cheaper, more resilient to magic missles or shooting (because of the stupidity of RO's when you lose a pm).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
pestilicious
Clanrat
I never get PCB to work. They cannot hunt characteres that well either, and their poor initiative means they rarely get to strike against good units. At least with the Rogres the one in the back rank always gets to strike.

Have anyone had a chance to try them out?

Edited by pestilicious, 16th August 2013 - 04:08 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TrueLancer
Grey Seer
They do have the low initiative problem, but their censor shaking Always Always Strikes Firstest.

That is, you'll throw a few poisonous censoring down before anything else (including, I think, Impact Hits), so, there's that. But yeah, i3 is terrible. Just got to pad them with a few extra wounds.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Grey seer White Paw
Member Avatar
Warlord of 7th Tactics!
This does sound like an interesting idea (and one that has been discussed (or something very similar) before).

However (and I am not trying to rain on the 'you saved the rat ogre parade') my problems with it are:

It costs quite a lot in points to be using them as chaff elimination, especially when most opponents will see drawing your rat ogres away from their main units as their chaff doing their job (cheap minimum WE with warp lightning does the same task for cheaper and contributes the odd channel).

Character assassination will not work any more effectively than a rat dart when the unit in question is more than your standard mage bunker. Most core troops can shred rat ogres (To 4 is really no big deal), and if they are fighting something that the rat ogres can take on and easily rack up the combat res, then how did they get there? Such a weak bunker unit would surely be behind the opponents main lines, which being the case would mean a lot of restrain tests for the Ro's to stop them from being frenzy baited.

Whilst the randomising shooting will help to keep them alive, their physical size works against them. Rat darts can be hidden behind units so that they can get in the way at exactly the right time. Rat Ogres cannot.

I think whilst a nice idea, WE / multiple rat darts (which don't lose us many points at all) can do the chaff clearing / mage hunting for a much cheaper price.
GW, sucking the fun out of the hobby since 1999.

Never worry. Worst case scenario you die, and then there was no point worrying anyways.

Skaven repaint overhaul Number 5! (2/5th complete)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rein bringer of the cheese
Warlord
As soon as the leave your LD bubble the are either Frenzy or Stupid.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
pestilicious
Clanrat
As they have no ranks they only get ld7 inside the bubble, so not really that much point. But working together with a rat dart the frenzy is not that devastating. If you charge chaff that flees, the ratdart can chase them off the table (If they were lined up next to the Rogredart they probably are within 18 inches of the fleeing unit)

And if you can only charge a unit, go after characters. If they only have a unit champion, try to challenge him and you might even win the combat and keep them occupied for a turn.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ratt Baron
Member Avatar
Warlord
I tried them today running 2 against a 1000 pt vampire list
One unit charged a unit of 5 dire wolfs. Destroying them but then getting hopelessly pulled out of position
The other unit got charged by 6 of the vargulfs?(3wound s5t4 things) and held them long enough for a flank charge. So it proved they are ok in the right circumstances
I would certainly use them in a smaller size game

Creator of the Double Doomwheel
Code:


Posted Image




Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
WoollyMammoth
Member Avatar
Stormvermin
What if you take Queek Headtakeer in a unit with banner of cmd?

Then you take 6 with 4 packmasters. With masterbred thats 287 and 10Ld. Near BSB you won't likely fail frenzy test.

22 S5 attacks at a decent initiative and S5. 18 T4 wounds and 4 pack-masters to absorb hits as well.

Like a S5 ogre kingdom unit with frenzy and attacks at a higher initiative, not very susceptible to the purple suns and pit of shades that are the bane of most MI. These ogres will tear down anything except elves and WoC before they get to strike.

Was frenzy different in 7th? is that why the are so hard to make viable now?
Edited by WoollyMammoth, 19th September 2014 - 01:07 AM.
Skaven Army
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
« Previous Topic · Fantasy Battles Rules Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply