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Olorin's Law for List Building; One Skavenslave for every 20 points
Topic Started: 19th July 2012 - 08:07 PM (1,370 Views)
Olorin the Ancient
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There has been a fair amount of discussion about how nearly every answer to a post requesting Skaven list building advice suggests adding more slaves. I suggest that we codify this.

Our primary law is that a list should average at least one model for every ten points. I propose adding a second law stating that every Skaven list should contain a minimum of one Skavenslave for every twenty points. Thus, a 1000 point army would need at least 50 Skavenslaves; a 2500 point army would need at least 125 Skavenslaves. Obviously, one can have more, but one slave for every twenty points seems like a place to start.

Since there is a very widespread general consensus about the need for Skavenslaves on the UnderEmpire, I think we should just make this another law for list building with Skaven.
- Olorin the Ancient
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avenger649
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I think there are a few things about this rule that would have to be mentioned if it was ever implemented.

1. I rarely ever run more than 80 slaves in my army as they are just used to tar-pit enemies while I get in position.
2. The scaling gets a little different at later points so while that rule is viable for smaller points levels at 3000 points one-hundred and fifty slaves is a little overkill.

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Nurglitch IX
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Olorin the Ancient
19th July 2012 - 08:07 PM
Our primary law is that a list should average at least one model for every ten points. I propose adding a second law stating that every Skaven list should contain a minimum of one Skavenslave for every twenty points. Thus, a 1000 point army would need at least 50 Skavenslaves; a 2500 point army would need at least 125 Skavenslaves. Obviously, one can have more, but one slave for every twenty points seems like a place to start.


I think a solid rule would be "minumum 1 unit of at least 30 slaves for every 750 points". I know the Maths are odd, but it's about what we end at.
Edited by Nurglitch IX, 19th July 2012 - 08:15 PM.
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snowblizz
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But my 2400 list only has 80 slaves of 259 models and there's just no way I can cram in more... Stormvermin and Plague Monks are really expensive.

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Olorin the Ancient
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avenger649
19th July 2012 - 08:13 PM
I think there are a few things about this rule that would have to be mentioned if it was ever implemented.

1. I rarely ever run more than 80 slaves in my army as they are just used to tar-pit enemies while I get in position.
2. The scaling gets a little different at later points so while that rule is viable for smaller points levels at 3000 points one-hundred and fifty slaves is a little overkill.

If you want your opponent dead, there's nothing like overkill, especially when it's so cheap. Giant units intimidate opponents, which can lead them to make bad decisions. If they're worrying about the swarms of Skavenslaves facing them, they may pay less attention to the Hell Pit Abomination or Doomwheel coming at their flanks, or the Gutter Runners arriving to their rear. For me, calling for 150 Skavenslaves in a 3000 point army seems perfectly reasonable.

Plus, at 3000 points, you're going to have to fit in at least 750 points of Core somehow, and Skavenslaves are a much better value than Clanrats, Stormvermin, or Weapon Teams, which are the other major options. (Night Runners, for me, don't even count as options.) As long as you have the models, 150 Skavenslaves in a 3000 point army isn't too much; you could even use that many Skavenslaves in a smaller army!

Olorin the Ancient's 2500 Point Skaven Army
 
2500 Pts - Skaven Roster - Olorin's Multi-Clan Mischief

Grey Seer (1#, 270 pts)
. . 1 Grey Seer, 270 pts (General; Hand Weapon)
. . . . 1 Warpstone Tokens
. . . . 1 Skalm
. . . . 1 Skaven Spells of Ruin

Battle Standard Bearer (1#, 122 pts)
. . 1 Chieftain (Battle Standard Bearer), 122 pts (Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer)
. . . . 1 Storm Banner

Plague Priest on Furnace (3#, 315 pts)
. . 1 Plague Priest, 315 pts (Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Frenzy)
. . . . 1 Plague Furnace (Frenzy; Large Target; Magic Resistance (2); Unbreakable)
. . . . . . 1 Plague Monk Crew (Frenzy)
. . . . 1 Dispel Scroll
. . . . 1 Ironcurse Icon
. . . . 1 Skaven Spells of Plague

Warlock Engineer (1#, 45 pts)
. . 1 Warlock Engineer, 45 pts (Hand Weapon)
. . . . 1 Doomrocket

Warlock Engineer (1#, 15 pts)
. . 1 Warlock Engineer, 15 pts (Hand Weapon)

Clanrats (53#, 339 pts)
. . 29 Clanrats, 220 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield)
. . . . 1 Clawleader (Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield)
. . . . 1 Poisoned Wind Mortar Weapon Team (Poisoned Wind Mortar; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour)
. . 21 Clanrats, 119 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield)
. . . . 1 Clawleader (Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield)

Skavenslaves (144#, 294 pts)
. . 50 Skavenslaves, 102 pts (Musician Mus; Hand Weapon)
. . 49 Skavenslaves, 100 pts (Musician Mus; Hand Weapon)
. . 45 Skavenslaves, 92 pts (Musician Mus; Hand Weapon)

Giant Rats (18#, 69 pts)
. . 5 Giant Rats, 23 pts
. . . . 1 Packmaster (Hand Weapon; Whip; Light Armour)
. . 5 Giant Rats, 23 pts
. . . . 1 Packmaster (Hand Weapon; Whip; Light Armour)
. . 5 Giant Rats, 23 pts
. . . . 1 Packmaster (Hand Weapon; Whip; Light Armour)

Plague Monks (35#, 270 pts)
. . 34 Plague Monks, 270 pts (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon; Extra Attack; Frenzy)
. . . . 1 Bringer-of-the-Word (Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon; Extra Attack; Frenzy)

Gutter Runners (15#, 270 pts)
. . 5 Gutter Runners, 90 pts (Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon; Sling; Throwing Star; Poisoned Attacks; Scouts; Skirmishers)
. . 5 Gutter Runners, 90 pts (Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon; Sling; Throwing Star; Poisoned Attacks; Scouts; Skirmishers)
. . 5 Gutter Runners, 90 pts (Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon; Sling; Throwing Star; Poisoned Attacks; Scouts; Skirmishers)

Hell Pit Abomination (1#, 250 pts)
. . 1 Hell Pit Abomination, 250 pts (Warpstone Spikes; Causes Terror; Large Target; Regenerate; Stubborn; Thunder Stomp)

Warp Lightning Cannon (1#, 90 pts)
. . 1 Warp Lightning Cannon, 90 pts
. . . . 1 Engineer & Crew

Doomwheel (1#, 150 pts)
. . 1 Doomwheel, 150 pts (Causes Terror; Immune to Psychology; Large Target)
. . . . 1 Crew (Warlock & Rats)

Composition Report:
# of Models: 275
Points of Lords: 270 (0 - 625)
Points of Heroes: 497 (0 - 625)
Points of Core: 633 (625 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 540 (0 - 1250)
Points of Rare: 490 (0 - 625)

Total Roster Cost: 2499
- Olorin the Ancient
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Kimzi
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I don't like slaves and never use them. They are weak and always get themselves killed. :c
Clanrats work way better for me. At least they can defend themselves and they can regroup after fleeing.
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Mathusala0
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mmm

I'll go ahead and add it, but I'm not sure that it's a perfect fit. the 1 per 10 points rule makes it almost impossible to build a list without the use of slaves (you would have to sacrifice almost all hard hitting things in order to pull of an all clanrat list)

It does however bring you pretty close to where you want to be approximately. its not an "omg must follow rule" but its a "beginners tips" rule just like the 1 per 10 (which can be bent as well and is only an approximation tool).
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SkavenDan
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Slaves are not a must but they do have a distinct advantage.

Also ETC screws with what a lot of people are saying here because it only allows a max of 3 units and no bigger than 40 each.
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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

ignoring ETC.
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Skrits
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I agree with the need for slaves however as soon as my Slaveunits go over 35 in size I give them shields to reduce their size and increase their manouvrability. Maybe you could make some sort of fineprint stating that alternatively you could take 1 slave with shield for every 25 points spend instead of 1 slave without shield for every 20. :)
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Mathusala0
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shields are still really up to the player choice

heres the amended section of the list guide

Quote:
 
1.5) 1 Slave for every 20 points.
It has long been a point of fact that slaves are one of skavens greatest tools. they provide the bodies that make Skaven a true horde army. just like the one per 10 rule above, you do not have to have 1 slave for every 20 points. But it is a general consensus that slaves are a vital part of skaven tactics and list building


if you don't like it tell me I'm always willing to make edits.
Edited by Mathusala0, 19th July 2012 - 09:14 PM.
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Nurglitch IX
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Mathusala0
19th July 2012 - 09:14 PM
1.5) 1 Slave for every 20 points.
It has long been a point of fact that slaves are one of skavens greatest tools. they provide the bodies that make Skaven a true horde army. just like the one per 10 rule above, you do not have to have 1 slave for every 20 points. But it is a general consensus that slaves are a vital part of skaven tactics and list building

You might want to point out that this means 50% of your army is slaves.
Edited by Nurglitch IX, 19th July 2012 - 10:12 PM.
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Olorin the Ancient
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Bounty
19th July 2012 - 10:11 PM
Mathusala0
19th July 2012 - 09:14 PM
1.5) 1 Slave for every 20 points.
It has long been a point of fact that slaves are one of skavens greatest tools. they provide the bodies that make Skaven a true horde army. just like the one per 10 rule above, you do not have to have 1 slave for every 20 points. But it is a general consensus that slaves are a vital part of skaven tactics and list building

You might want to point out that this means 50% of your army is slaves.
Bounty,
Sure, a majority of your models will be slaves, but you'll actually be freeing up points for your harder-hitting units. So, in the 2500 point list above, 52.4% of the models are Skavenslaves, but they only use up 11.8% of the points. In my standard 1000 point list, exactly two-thirds of the 105 models are Skavenslaves, but they use up only 14.4% of the points, which frees up points to allow me to take a Grey Seer and a Hell Pit Abomination.

Math,
Actually, I was just throwing the 1 for 20 rule out there; I don't really know what it should be. Realistically, it's going to depend on the models you have. But I do know that Skavenslaves, point for point, are a better value than Clanrats, and a much better value than Stormvermin.

If there were to be an Olorin's Second Law, it would be to stay away from anything using ETC comp rules, which are incredibly stupid. (I'm actually holding back a bit here: you wouldn't want to know what I really think of them!) Of course, since I'm not a tournament player and don't live in Europe, the rules haven't actually ever caused a problem for me, as I've never seriously considered playing anywhere that used them, but I hate the ETC rules just from reading them.
- Olorin the Ancient
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Nurglitch IX
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Olorin the Ancient
19th July 2012 - 10:50 PM
Bounty
19th July 2012 - 10:11 PM
Mathusala0
19th July 2012 - 09:14 PM
1.5) 1 Slave for every 20 points.
It has long been a point of fact that slaves are one of skavens greatest tools. they provide the bodies that make Skaven a true horde army. just like the one per 10 rule above, you do not have to have 1 slave for every 20 points. But it is a general consensus that slaves are a vital part of skaven tactics and list building

You might want to point out that this means 50% of your army is slaves.
Bounty,
Sure, a majority of your models will be slaves, but you'll actually be freeing up points for your harder-hitting units. So, in the 2500 point list above, 52.4% of the models are Skavenslaves, but they only use up 11.8% of the points. In my standard 1000 point list, exactly two-thirds of the 105 models are Skavenslaves, but they use up only 14.4% of the points, which frees up points to allow me to take a Grey Seer and a Hell Pit Abomination.
I know, it's just a mental disconnect there when you see the volume of slaves. I tend to think in terms of units not models, which is why I proposed the unit of 30+ per 750. There probably needs to a rider for calculating the +, but other than right at 1500 and over 2400 that gives about what you're running, percentage wise.
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CapAmr05
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Olorin the Ancient
19th July 2012 - 10:50 PM
Actually, I was just throwing the 1 for 20 rule out there; I don't really know what it should be.
I went back an audited my last 12 tournament lists, and 1 slave per 20 points is pretty close to accurate for the builds I've used. The only list I had that was drastically off from this count had a specific rule that affected slave unit options.

Obviously not all players/ lists rely on slaves, but just like the 1 model per 10 points "rule" (which not all players/ lists follow this "rule" either, and they can still be successful), this 1 slave for ~20 points "rule" is a good generic starting point for people looking for common builds or trying to learn the army.

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