| Packmaster/Giant Rat Hit Randomization; What about characters? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 25th June 2012 - 03:16 AM (1,476 Views) | |
| Grey Seer Kwokka | 25th June 2012 - 03:16 AM Post #1 |
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I'm a rat, I'm a rat, I'm a clever-clever rat!
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So the rulebook says in regards to shooting attacks or hits distributed as per shooting... "Roll a D6; 1-4 hits a Giant Rat, 5-6 hits a Packmaster. If there are other models within the unit, then these are further randomized." OK, but how are they "further randomized"? Let's say that I have a Warlord on a Great Pox Rat in a unit of 40 Giant Rats, with 8 Packmasters. How do we resolve 20 standard ballistic skill hits (non-template) coming in during the shooting phase? As an additional spanner in the works, the current BRB states that shooting attacks where LOS does not apply (where it would not here) can be allocated one to a model until all models have one, and then the second hit for each in the same fashion,et al; this is done by the controlling player. Does this mean that I could simply "choose" where these hits go within the unit if my 48 + 1 strong combined unit gets shot at, and that I can simply ignore that the Warlord ever getting hit at my own discretion unless there are enough hits to spread to all individual models in that one phase? |
| IT'S INSANE!: The army diary for Clan Kwokka (sub-sect of Clan Volkn), currently led by Krushklaw the Mad, the evincar of evisceration. | |
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| Mathusala0 | 25th June 2012 - 05:17 AM Post #2 |
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The Evil Underlord
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you ignore the character until the unit has less than 5 models, and then randomize. and by ignore, I mean randomize between the pm and gr as normal and more importantly, you never put a character who isn't throt or sqweel into a unit of gr. Edited by Mathusala0, 25th June 2012 - 05:19 AM.
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| Grey Seer Kwokka | 25th June 2012 - 05:51 AM Post #3 |
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I'm a rat, I'm a rat, I'm a clever-clever rat!
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You realize that anything riding a Great Pox Rat would not be the same troop type as the giant rats or packmasters? I don't think you're right there, Math. |
| IT'S INSANE!: The army diary for Clan Kwokka (sub-sect of Clan Volkn), currently led by Krushklaw the Mad, the evincar of evisceration. | |
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| Mathusala0 | 25th June 2012 - 06:05 AM Post #4 |
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The Evil Underlord
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the only significant thing that occurs from being a different unit type is that you gain no los (to the best of my knowledge) |
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| Grey Seer Kwokka | 25th June 2012 - 06:12 AM Post #5 |
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I'm a rat, I'm a rat, I'm a clever-clever rat!
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There's a passage about scenarios like this in the BRB, but I don't have it handy at the moment. I'll quote it when I get home tonight (after the doctor, coughing like a heavy smoker at the moment). |
| IT'S INSANE!: The army diary for Clan Kwokka (sub-sect of Clan Volkn), currently led by Krushklaw the Mad, the evincar of evisceration. | |
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| Renegade | 25th June 2012 - 12:17 PM Post #6 |
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Stormvermin
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Correct me if I am wrong.... When a character lets say Queek is in a groop of stormvermin it makes sense that he would not be hit by arrows because he would either use his stormshiel (see what I did there) or simeply step out of the way. As a pox rider he and the pack master are bigger targets then the rats and thus cannot use them as meatshiels. So it would only make sense to randomize the hits between them. Going about this however I have no clue. Although I remeber playing a game in 6th against a GW veteran... different I know but maybe we can draw something from it. I was playing that chaos guy on a hore (you know the uber pwn guy) and had 6 warhounds. When I was shot at by high elves I simply just removed my hounds. So this being 8 years ago has the possibilty of me not remebering correctly. Does anyone know the Lizardmen rule for this? As I know they have mixed unit types and this could help us conclude the debate. |
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| Mathusala0 | 25th June 2012 - 07:34 PM Post #7 |
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The Evil Underlord
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NO for the same reason the lizard man rules do not effect our rat ogres they will not effect us here. that reason being that they are not the skaven book or he main BRB |
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| LordStinkwrinkle | 11th July 2012 - 08:02 PM Post #8 |
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Being a large target doesn't mean they cant use their look out sir rule. Math was right, you randomize between rats and packmasters until theres 5 models left. Look out sir! doesnt apply to just intelligent units, you could put a more dastardly, skavenly approach, such as the pox rat-rider picking up a giant rat and using it as a shield, etc. |
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| Mathusala0 | 11th July 2012 - 08:31 PM Post #9 |
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The Evil Underlord
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actually I specifically said that he doesn't get a look out sir. he just can't be hit by normal shooting. |
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| CapAmr05 | 11th July 2012 - 08:31 PM Post #10 |
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That would unfortunately be cheating; Look out sir is only available to models of the same troop type. A rider on a pox rat is typed as cavalry, a giant rat typed as a warbeast... those aren't the same. Cavalry can only take look out sir if they are in a unit or near a unit typed as Cavalry (with sufficient numbers); so while picking up a giant rat and using it as a shield against cannons would be a very Skaven thing to do, it does not fit within the rules. A warlord on bonebreaker is typed as Monstrous Cavalry and thus no matter where he is in a Skaven only army, he'll never get a Look Out Sir; Nor would a rider on a Bell (or Furnace) as their type becomes Unique and the models pushing them are still typed as infantry. --Cap Edited by CapAmr05, 11th July 2012 - 08:32 PM.
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| TrueLancer | 12th July 2012 - 10:48 AM Post #11 |
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Grey Seer
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I believe the rule for Warbeasts is that they are of the type "Warbeast." When they're ridden, they follow the rules for cavalry (so no directing attacks at my giant rat that I'm riding on and the rider and mount count as one model which dies when the rider's wounds fall to zero or less, for example). That is, the 'type' doesn't change, although some specific rules do. There are lots of examples in the rules where you may be one 'thing' but you use other similar rule sets as specifically indicated in the rules. It's similar to an elf hero with a special weapon that "follows the rules for bolt-throwers." You don't say, "Oh, my elf needs to get three guys to act as a crew, he can't join units, and chargers can only get six models into the war machine." |
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| CapAmr05 | 12th July 2012 - 02:23 PM Post #12 |
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Clever, but it's not correct, the troop type does indeed change when different troop types are combined (the only ocassion of this combining happens when a Character is invovled, everything else is pre-defined by GW; I.e. Coldone Knights are already classed as Cav).... Character + Other. Read page 104 and 105. (And characters are the only ones able to ride a Pox Rat) If you try to allude that a combined model keeps it's original troop type you create major problems (because you're combining 2 troop types!). How do you determine (if you claim the troop type doesn't change) which troop type an Infantry Character + Warbeast; does he get look out Sir from Infantry only? or Warbeasts only? or Both? Or does h only get a look out sir from other models that are also specifically combined Infantry + Warbeast? None of the above is correct; the correct answer is he's classed as Cavalry (Character + Warbeast = Cavalry) and only gets look out sir from other cavalry (no matter which answer you go with, a Pox Rider can still never take a look out sir in the Skaven army because nothing will match it's troop type). A further example of that interpretation extrapolated to illustrate it's err: Now any infantry character that's mounted on something (which would make them Cavalry, Monstrous Cav or Ridden Monster) you'd claim is still classed as Infantry + Other; then we can dreaded 13th the character right off of that dragon, because the claim is that he's still infantry and his dragon is still a monster. That's flat out wrong (though it would be hilarious), the character combined model makes him a different troop type and thus immune to the 13th. Characters when mounted, the model literally takes on a different troop type as outlined on page 104 and 105. --Cap Edited by CapAmr05, 12th July 2012 - 05:52 PM.
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| LordStinkwrinkle | 13th July 2012 - 05:50 AM Post #13 |
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my bad i didn't realize that it became cavalry when on a pox rat |
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| CapAmr05 | 13th July 2012 - 02:15 PM Post #14 |
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That's why we talk rules, always something new to find in those 200+ pages. --Cap |
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| TrueLancer | 14th July 2012 - 12:16 PM Post #15 |
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Grey Seer
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....what? You're misrepresenting my claim and making a strawman argument. I NEVER said you can 13th a person off a dragon or that you "keep" your original type and can have some imaginary "character+dragon mount" crazy thing running around. Clever, but no. In every case of those VERY pages you are insisting so heavily on on pages 104-105, it generally suggests that you count the model as one model and count the troop type as the type being ridden. A guy on cavalry type? Cavalry. A guy on monstrous cavalry? Monstrous Cavalry. A guy on a monster? Monster. A guy on a Chariot? Chariot. The rules are quite explicit in those regards. A Warbeast's type is Warbeast. A character can ride on a Warbeast, in which case they use cavalry models' rules. Referring to the cavalry model's rules, you'll see warbeasts that are ridden gain the Swiftstride rule (technically, the already have this one), the Cavalry Supporting Attacks rule, and the Special Rules listed on the page (the whole model benefits/suffers from Fear, Terror, and Stupidity, Immune to Psychology, Immune to Fear/Terror/Panic, if either individual part of the model benefits/suffers from these, and the Frenzy stipulation). Ironically, changing the unit's type from one type to another is not a special rule for cavalry. Multiple sections here have "these are the rules this model follows, but they also include the rules from this other model type. Instead of reprinting an entire page, just go reference those rules under section X." That's what's going on here. There are MANY cases in the Warhammer book where it indicates what a 'thing' is but indicates you should use the rules of another thing for certain aspects of it. Death Globes are thrown "like Brass Orbs," but nobody says you can't put both in your list due to the restriction of 1 of each magic item - despite a specific similarity, each item retains individuality and the other aspects of the item remain unchanged despite sharing a specific type. In this case, I don't know what the intent exactly of the rulebook here is - It's terribly written. Rules As written, it seems types are not supposed to change. Rules as Intended? I'm not as prepared to argue what 7th edition writers going to 8th edition books wanted, especially when you start to factor in things like the rules for the Pox Rat changing completely, suffering from crazy Addendum and Errata changes as well as being mounted on a distinctly non-traditional 40mmx40mm base. |
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