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| Rat Ogre horde...how to? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 18th June 2012 - 02:02 PM (1,875 Views) | |
| Nurglitch IX | 18th June 2012 - 08:54 PM Post #16 |
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Sure it does. Page 5 First paragraph "A unit consists of 1 or more models that are arranged in orthogonal base contact with each other." That is NOT an orthogonal Arrangement. |
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| CapAmr05 | 18th June 2012 - 09:51 PM Post #17 |
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Wrong; They continue the exact quote you posted saying: "which is a fancy way of saying Edge to Edge and Front Corner to Front Corner". Math's diagram still meets these requirements and further to my original point, says nothing about the WIDTH of the BASES. If the unit is in I formation; then Edge to Edge is still accomplished and Front Corner to Front Corner is not possible because no one is next to another but rather, they're lined up Front to Back. Again, nothing on Page 5 says anything about the width of the Bases dictating how the units are composed. The only section of the book that speaks to the differing bases combining in units lies within the Character Footprint section which doesn't say anything width of the base dictating their placement within the formation. No formation is outlawed; particularly in this case, the I Formation; (if you want to do a congaline, you're allowed to do a conagline), though the conflicting footprint section could force the 20mm models off to the side; but the current assertion is that since the 20mm can fit within the 40mm unit, this force-out may or may happen (even within your own diagram where you Had 2 20s next to eacheother and then a Ratogre immediately behind them). Again the Footprint problem, we're always given examples of bases being bigger than the unit they're trying to join, they never address the function of the bases being smaller than the unit they're trying to join (even though mathematically we know 4 20mm will fit within a 40mm base); when given a lone 20mm the issue becomes muddied. --Cap Edited by CapAmr05, 18th June 2012 - 10:17 PM.
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Lonewolf Grand Tournament April 28-30 The Beer Phase Podcast Clan Skrittar | |
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| Nurglitch IX | 18th June 2012 - 11:32 PM Post #18 |
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Look at that again. In order to be "Edge to Edge" you need to touch those two red lines. If you slide them one way or the other you could touch 1, but you can't touch both. Again, this is adressed with the only other unit to have both 40x40 and 20x20 models in the block - the Lizardman book. Why they didn't include that sidebar in the Skaven book is beyond me. ![]() And the character Footprint section does adress placement as a fuction of width, specifically "If a charcters base is larger than one model *grumble* but has exactly the same size area (or 'footprint') as two or more models..." and "If a character's footprint does not fit neatly into a unit..." Footprint is a function of width and depth. But everything in the core book assumes equal base size, or an indpendant model with a larger size. There's nothing for dealing with a Mixed size unit, or for dealing with 'smaller' characters. Edited by Nurglitch IX, 18th June 2012 - 11:34 PM.
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| CapAmr05 | 19th June 2012 - 01:33 AM Post #19 |
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No, what it seems like that's driving at would be "Corners touching Corners" (which isn't a requirement, because only Front Corner is spoken to in the quote). The edges of the bases are already touching in that diagram (the 20 edge is touching the 40 edge entirely)... an Edge is not a Corner (though a corner is an edge). Which as I stated earlier the only corner requirement is of the front corners, which in I Formation is not valid since it's 1 model wide (it's impossible for front corners to touch).
Seroiously: It doesn't matter how the Lizards do things. Forget about how someone else does something and use only the specific rules we have at hand (Unique Rules: Rat Ogre & PackMaster; Infantry and Monstrous Infantry). When you get distracted by how someone else does something you can lose sight of the true data you do have, instead of focusing on trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. You can try to draw all sorts of parallels between all sorts of units, but unless the Rat Ogre rules say "Follow the Skrox rules" you're mixing from entirely different rules and that makes huge problems such as..... Timeless examples that always make me laugh: All the people who tried to argue for Bell Ejection because of Monster Reactions in 7th edition -or- Warptokens exceeding the max because Darkelves could exceed the max; they were comparisons from rough similarities but not directly related with RULES. Sure the bell functions eerily like a monster mount, sure warptokens function like free power of darkness powerdice; but they lack the key rules that drove that setup or rule or action and in the end everyone who tried to pull those similarities turned out to be wrong. (I know you've got a better comparison than Bell=Monster; but it's still a stretch when comparing Race rules for other Race rules. Jus tthe desperation to define the Bell model was so great that people were literally redefining the model without thinking of end results) The majority of a Skrox unit is Skinks (20mm) surrounding a few Krox, whereas the Majority of a Rat Ogre Block are the Rat Ogres (40mm) accompanied by a few packmasters. They're both unique units, but so are Gyrocopters and Doomwheels and Furnaces. Just because a unit shares the unique rating does not mean they function the exact same. Just because a unit seems the most similar doesn't mean they'll function the same. In fact, if you read the rules for unique units you'll note that they follow the normal rules for whatever classification they have unless their unique rules state otherwise. The Rat Ogres never state how they rank up, just that packmasters can attack from a rear rank and that packmasters don't count towards rank calculation. Nothing is ever stated about using Lizardman rules; to do so it to make your own judgement call. Which is fine, but it's making a huge assumption for a unit that might seem similar on the surface, but is entirely functionally different when put next to eachother rule for rule. And don't take that as hostility, I'm just trying to be as direct as I can with counterpoints.... and basically, what I'm trying to say is, stop trying to make me learn other armies' rules! lol :p --Cap Edited by CapAmr05, 19th June 2012 - 02:48 AM.
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Lonewolf Grand Tournament April 28-30 The Beer Phase Podcast Clan Skrittar | |
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| TrueLancer | 22nd June 2012 - 09:37 PM Post #20 |
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Grey Seer
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I get the feeling that the FAQ writer for the Skaven (and Tyrannid?) books is some new guy who doesn't actually READ the Skaven rulebook or special rules, but just pulls the answer out of the rulebook. The way they deal with Master Moulders is a perfect example of this. Skaven Player: "Hey, I got a unit upgrade who has a special rule that he can be in the back of a unit, plus a bunch of very VERY expensive magical items that allow him to attack from the back of the unit." Idiot FAQ writer: "Well, put him in the front anyway, where you can spend tons of points on stuff but he'll just die anyway." On a related topic, the fact that people can direct attacks onto champions is just stupid. Furthermore, I think he just made up some questions to sound cool. Who the heck is asking about special characters in units of Night Runners? The main problem with the Rat Ogre units is you have competing rule sets. All Rat Ogres go to the front. Packmasters go to the back. That's simple enough. It only gets confusing when FAQ writers (who really need to put their dumb ideas into Errata if they want them taken seriously) start to confuse special characters, unit upgrades, command groups, and champions and then don't read the corresponding section of the army rulebook when making decisions. Frankly, the whole thing needs a rewrite. It's confusing. So you can upgrade a rat ogre to have +1WS and +1 Attack, so it's now a champion? But I can also have a packmaster who is supposed to be in the back row (?) with weapons that function from the back row (?) but can be upgraded into another champion with weapons that function from the back row (?) as well as very expensive magical items that function from the back row (?), but they must go into the front row (?) with the other champion there (?) where a brand spanking new Skweel can be upgraded from a packmaster (which is even more confusing, as you have to include a normal packmaster becoming Skweel and thus costing a total of 108 points (?) ... that's a nice round number...) who has rules that function and allow him to be in the back row but if you follow the 'all champions must be in the front row' rule (?) , which theoretically is contradicted by the army book rule (?), but you must place him in the front row (?), thus making a unit of rat ogres that is possible to have three guys in the front row who all 'must be in the front row' despite functioning better in the back row (?) and who are all champions (?) (?) (?) (?) ??? That's insane. That's so expensive, ridiculously weak for the extreme amount of points going there, and insane. On top of that, it's T4 with NO SAVES WHATSOEVER, so all of this confusion on my part is just to be confused while my opponents happily shoot heat-seeking missiles into my rat-ogres where the champions, Skweel, and whatever heroes I foolishly put into the unit automagically get shots put onto them no matter how many rat ogres are in the front to take the hits, thus guaranteeing they become STUPID on a Leadership Terrible roll to not do anything for an investment of RIDICULOUSLY EXPENSIVE points. Rat ogres could be an awesome unit, if the writers took a few moments to think out some of these things. Edited by TrueLancer, 23rd June 2012 - 01:23 AM.
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