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Rat Ogre horde...how to?
Topic Started: 18th June 2012 - 02:02 PM (1,876 Views)
Nately120


Yo, I'm getting back into Warhammer after years of inactivity (moved far from my gaming pals, but now I'm back) and this whole new edition is pretty unknown to me.

SO, I had a specific question to toss your way, forgive me if it's been discussed or is obvious (I've been playing Skaven since 1999, so cut me some slack!).

I rather like the idea of a Rat Ogre horde slab o' troops (the absurdity alone makes it viable) but I noticed that monstrous infantry needs 6 models wide (even though 5 should technically count as 10, but I disagree yet digress) SO can I toss that Master Moulder who HAS to be in the front rank up there and count as a horde? 5 Rat Ogres wide and one Master Moulder make it 6 models wide and a horde? I realize the mixed unit thing makes this a rather different set of circumstances (that's Skaven for ya) so I figured I'd ask.

It's not that I'm totally against 6 Rat Ogres wide, but I'm going to HAVE to put that MM in the front, so that restriction may as well work in our favor, right? Otherwise it's going to be the equivalent of 13 models wide, when 10 should suffice. Just figured I'd ask, and YES, it's great to be back!
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Rageaholic
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The way I read it different size base stuff only counts as the models it displaces if the base sizes are compatible.

So a warlord on a 40x40 litter in the front rank counts as 2 front rank and 2 second rank models. So in a horde you would have 9 models (1 warlord and 8 rats) in the first 2 ranks. Then 10 in the ranks behind that.

But I think for a MM he needs to go on the side as you can't have 5 RO and a MM in the first rank then 6 RO in the second rank because you will have a gap.
So I think to get the benefit from horde you will need 6x3 RO with a MM stuck on the side of the first rank. So yes you will be 245 mm wide whereas Clanrats would be only 200mm wide, but anything on a 25mm base would be 250mm wide, so I don't think it's completely unfair.
And if you do want a rat ogre horde, I suggest taking Squeel Gnawtooth instead as his buffs would be well worthwhile on a unit of that many points.
Edited by Rageaholic, 18th June 2012 - 02:22 PM.
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Nately120


Ah, yea, I'd take Skweel, but he can stay in the back unlike the goofy MM. Hmm, so a Rat Ogre Horde looks like it needs 18 Rat Ogres to get full effect, eh? Daunting on and off the table for me and my opponents, no doubt. Thanks for the help!
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Nurglitch IX
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Nately120
18th June 2012 - 03:41 PM
Ah, yea, I'd take Skweel, but he can stay in the back unlike the goofy MM. Hmm, so a Rat Ogre Horde looks like it needs 18 Rat Ogres to get full effect, eh? Daunting on and off the table for me and my opponents, no doubt. Thanks for the help!
Nope, Skweel is a MM, and as such is a Champion, and as such needs to go in the front row.

This is my #1 CAN WE GAT A FAQ-FAQ question, and we've been back and over it. The current answer is "whatever your opponent agrees too."


The current debate:

The rule you quoted on page 81 says "A unit composed purely of monsterous..." Rat Ogres aren't, they have MM, and PM, and Skweel.
The rule for Champions (Master Moulders, Skweel, Master Bred) says they must be in the front rank.
Ranking Rules on page 5 dont cover this, other than to show that only the rear rank can be 'thinner' than the front rank.
The only page in the BRB that comes close to covering this is 98 which is for CHARACTERS, states that you should count larger FITTING bases as though they were the same number of rank and file troops as the base would have displaced. By this logic each Rat Ogre counts as 4 Pack Masters for determining Ranks and Files. Barring the rule in the Skaven book that says otherwise.
That rule, on page 53, says you don't count PM( inc. MM and Skweel) when determining Rank bonus. This says nothing about File size, but since File size doesn't exist a rule per say maybe it should.
MY position:
There is 1 other unit in the game that works like Rat Ogres, a Lizardman unit. In the lizardman book there's a half page devoted to ranking core units with different sized bases. Lacking anything better I think these are the rules we should be using. I've posted them here somewhere I think, not sure what you'd use to search for them though.
Edited by Nurglitch IX, 18th June 2012 - 03:58 PM.
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Nately120


The sheer fact that MM's and Skweel have access to Whips and magic Whips pretty much makes the FAQ that puts them in the front rank seem a bit...wrong.
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Nurglitch IX
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Nately120
18th June 2012 - 04:08 PM
The sheer fact that MM's and Skweel have access to Whips and magic Whips pretty much makes the FAQ that puts them in the front rank seem a bit...wrong.
Version error. It happens, a lot. It probably accounts for 1/3 of our FAQ, which is longer than any but the BRB.

The magic whips are the ones that get me, because they only benifit when you aren't in the front rank, a Normal whip is at least an off hand Weapon, giving you an additional attack. I guess the magical whip makes all of your attack magical, but for that one bennie it's overpriced.

As to horde formation, I made a Graphic of what *I* Think an RO horde should look like. This isn't offical, but it jives with what the Lizardman book says about different sized Rank and File units.

Posted Image

When one of the two front characters is killed, you move a PM up to cover for them. if they're both killed, you reform so it's 5 solid RO in the front. If all 6 PM are killed, you're out of horde formation, and Stupid.
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Edited by Nurglitch IX, 18th June 2012 - 04:19 PM.
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CapAmr05
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Bounty;

Horde formation requires the unit be 240mm wide (6 40's bases), not 200mm (5 40's).

You need to add a Rat Ogre to the left or the right.

--Cap
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Also your character placement is wrong the BRB specifically states because of the different base size they go on the end of the unit not in the center.
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Nurglitch IX
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CapAmr05
18th June 2012 - 04:54 PM
Bounty;
Horde formation requires the unit be 240mm wide (6 40's bases), not 200mm (5 40's).<br /><br />You need to add a Rat Ogre to the left or the right.
--Cap
SkavenDan
18th June 2012 - 05:13 PM
Also your character placement is wrong the BRB specifically states because of the different base size they go on the end of the unit not in the center.
See, this is where we have the break. I maintain that the PackMasters make this a 20mm unit, where the Rat Ogres take up 4 spots. AS such, the frontage is correct (10 Pack Masters wide) and the placement is Valid. It's only 6 RO wide if the unit is comprised soley of monsterous infrantry, which this isn't. So it's either 10 packmasters or 10 Rat Ogres.

The reason we need a FAQ.
Edited by Nurglitch IX, 18th June 2012 - 05:29 PM.
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CapAmr05
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Incorrect, the presence of packmasters does not make this a 20mm unit. As I've pointed out before (in older footprint discussions) this FAQ clearly illustrates the fact that packmasters are ignored for the purposes of Ranks. If you're being told to ignore all of the 20mm models (packmasters) when calculating ranks, how can you contend the counted 40mm models get to use 20mm standards of ranks (since the 20mm 'aren't there') when calculating the ranks?

Quote:
 
Q. The Packmasters’ special rule Running with the Pack and the
special rule Beast Pack seem to contradict each other. How do they
work? (p53)
A. The Packmaster and Master Moulder models are ignored
when working out the unit’s rank bonus, so only ranks of Rat
Ogres count.
Use the Packmasters’ or Master Moulders’ Ld
value (or the General’s) as the base Ld for the unit, to which
you then add the Rat Ogres’ rank bonus.


Only the Rat Ogres count for making up ranks; and since they're Monstrous Infantry only ranks of 3 or 6 Rat Ogres are required for Rank Bonus/ Horde.

I'm not disagreeing with how you've formed the unit (I think if they fit, then the chars can hang out as such), but the packmasters absolutely do not allow the Rat Ogres to count a footprint or formation anything other than what only the Rat Ogres make themselves.

--Cap
Edited by CapAmr05, 18th June 2012 - 05:54 PM.
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Nurglitch IX
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CapAmr05
18th June 2012 - 05:39 PM
Incorrect, the presence of packmasters does not make this a 20mm unit. As I've pointed out before (in older footprint discussions) this FAQ clearly illustrates the fact that packmasters are ignored for the purposes of Ranks. If you're being told to ignore all of the 20mm models (packmasters) when calculating ranks, how can you contend the counted 40mm models get to use 20mm standards of ranks (since the 20mm 'aren't there') when calculating the ranks?
Quote:
 
Q. The Packmasters’ special rule Running with the Pack and the special rule Beast Pack seem to contradict each other. How do they work? (p53)
A. The Packmaster and Master Moulder models are ignored when working out the unit’s rank bonus, so only ranks of Rat Ogres count. Use the Packmasters’ or Master Moulders’ Ld value (or the General’s) as the base Ld for the unit, to which you then add the Rat Ogres’ rank bonus.

Only the Rat Ogres count for making up ranks; and since they're Monstrous Infantry only ranks of 3 or 6 Rat Ogres are required for Rank Bonus/ Horde.
I'm not disagreeing with how you've formed the unit (I think if they fit, then the chars can hang out as such), but the packmasters absolutely do not allow the Rat Ogres to count a footprint or formation anything other than what only the Rat Ogres make themselves.
--Cap
So does that mean that I can attack with all 6 packmasters as well? We ignore them when counting ranks so they're all within 3 ranks of the front...

It comes back down to is unit Width a function of Rank Bonus. Applying the dependant clause of that sentence to all PM/RO baseing interactions is the sort og thing you normally encourage us not to do.
Edited by Nurglitch IX, 18th June 2012 - 06:08 PM.
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CapAmr05
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Quote:
 
So does that mean that I can attack with all 6 packmasters as well? We ignore them when counting ranks so they're all within 3 ranks of the front...


Ignoring them for calculating Ranks does not mean the Packmasters ignore the rules for support attacks support attacks is not a direct function of calculating ranks (so whatever supports they could make citing rules should be legal); whereas Rank Calculation and Formations (such as Horde) are related.

Quote:
 
It comes back down to is unit Width a function of Rank Bonus


Unit width for determining ranks/ columns is entirely dependent on the the models comprising the ranks not their actual MM measurement from their bases. Remember the Packmasters are not comprising the ranks, pretend they aren't even there because we're told by the FAQ that they aren't even to be considered when comprising the ranks.... which leaves you ONLY the Rat Ogres for calculating ranks.

How do Rat Ogres count their ranks? Well since they're Monstrous Infantry they follow the rules on Page 81 Monstrous Ranks. Packmasters do not ever enter into the equation of Rank Counting with Rat Ogres.

Quote:
 
Applying the dependant clause of that sentence to all PM/RO baseing interactions is the sort og thing you normally encourage us not to do.


You're cross-pollinating Lizardman logic from a unit that specifically counts the unit based around the 20mm Sinks; whereas this is a Skaven unit that counts it's ranks specifically based around the 40mm Rat Ogres. The Skinks are moot :D

--Cap

Edited by CapAmr05, 18th June 2012 - 06:38 PM.
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Mathusala0
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rat ogres are monstrous infantry have to be 6 wide to get horde formation.

that said, there are no rules as to form the unit up right now at ALL. (it is my belief that Vetock unintentionally assumed that everyone would automatically put all packmasters to the rear or far sides)

however, right now you could do something like this.

Posted Image

or this

Posted Image

not exactly good for gaming purposes but I can find no rules that say otherwise.

Quote:
 
This is my #1 CAN WE GAT A FAQ-FAQ question


ditto, with scorches "anywhere clarification" being my second.
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Nurglitch IX
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CapAmr05
18th June 2012 - 06:31 PM
Quote:
 
It comes back down to is unit Width a function of Rank Bonus


Unit width for determining ranks/ columns is entirely dependent on the the models comprising the ranks not their actual MM measurement from their bases. Remember the Packmasters are not comprising the ranks, pretend they aren't even there because we're told by the FAQ that they aren't even to be considered when comprising the ranks.... which leaves you ONLY the Rat Ogres for calculating ranks.

How do Rat Ogres count their ranks? Well since they're Monstrous Infantry they follow the rules on Page 81 Monstrous Ranks. Packmasters do not ever enter into the equation of Rank Counting with Rat Ogres.
We're told to not consider them when counting for Rank Bonus. We still need to consider them for Unit composition, fall forward ranking, and who can strike in combat. So which side should Unit Width fall on, the Rank Bonus side, or the 'other' side. Personally I find HORDE WIDTH to be far closes related to "who can strike" than to "rank bonus in combat resolution". But that's our problem, both sides have merits, and flaws, and there's nothing difiinative. A FAQ on Hording would be final, regardless if which way they go. I suspect it will be 6 RO, to be honest, and can only hope they change/remove the MM in the front to "all non RO must be in the rear row" when they do it.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Applying the dependant clause of that sentence to all PM/RO baseing interactions is the sort og thing you normally encourage us not to do.
You're cross-pollinating Lizardman logic from a unit that specifically counts the unit based around the 20mm Sinks; whereas this is a Skaven unit that counts it's ranks specifically based around the 40mm Rat Ogres. The Skinks are moot :D
I consider it a section on unit composition rules that uses Skinks for the example, and really think it should have gone in teh BRB when they updated it for 8th, since it's sidebared, not inline with the unit rules like just about every other Armybook I've read.

More importantly though, when I read this, my brain, as it's wont to do, skipped a gear, and I heard my old See 'n Say going "The Skink Says Moooooo"

Mathusala0
18th June 2012 - 06:55 PM
that said, there are no rules as to form the unit up right now at ALL.
Posted Image

not exactly good for gaming purposes but I can find no rules that say otherwise.

This one REALLY bugs me, as it feels like it violates the rule that each row must be as wide as the row in front of it. If you're using the rules for Unit formation in the Lizardman book (which Cap says shouldn't apply) this is specifically ruled against.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
This is my #1 CAN WE GAT A FAQ-FAQ question
ditto, with scorches "anywhere clarification" being my second.
I had one before scorch on my list, but I can't remember what it was at the moment, and don't feel like trying to dig out that thread to check before I post this.

INTERATE:
Code:
 
LINK BACK: http://s6.zetaboards.com/The_UnderEmpire/topic/8795778/2/
In case anyone wants to read the last go round
Edited by Nurglitch IX, 18th June 2012 - 07:36 PM.
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CapAmr05
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Quote:
 
Personally I find HORDE WIDTH to be far closes related to "who can strike" than to "rank bonus in combat resolution".


Figuring out Horde width has absolutely nothing to do with "who can strike", but rather "How many models wide is this unit". Horde is a classification to gain game benefits because of your Formation; just like Ranks grant game benefits because of your Formation. Ranks and Horde are Formation dependent abilities; opened up for units once a certain set of formation circumstances have been established.

You can be in horde formation and have a majority of your models not be able to strike (because your opponent isn't wide enough, or maybe it's a lone character and he challenges); the bonus of being in horde formation is more models can strike; Striking is an end result of Horde not a manner of calculating it. "Who Can Strike" is a by product of Horde not a measure of figuring out if something is in horde.

The major point on Horde, numerical distance is not what opens a unit's ability to use horde (nor is it resulting ability to strike). It's the number of Models Wide the unit is (that's entirely it). So either you need 10 models wide or 6 models wide to get Horde with Rat Ogres.

Page 49: The Horde (For Infantry)
"Any unit that is at least 10 models wide is counted as being in horde mode"

Page 81: Monstrous Ranks (Horde for Monstrous Infatry)
"Following the same logic, a unit of monstrous infantry only needs a frontage of 6 models to count as horde rather than the normal ten"

Quote:
 

This one REALLY bugs me, as it feels like it violates the rule that each row must be as wide as the row in front of it.


You're misremembering the rule in the BRB.

Page 5: Forming Units; last paragraph
"As far as possible there must be the same number of models in each rank. Where this is not possible it must be the rear rank that has fewer models."

It says nothing about base width, it just has to have the same number of models wide per rank (except the last rank). Math's snake formation is legal, even though it isn't pretty.

--Cap
Edited by CapAmr05, 18th June 2012 - 08:35 PM.
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