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| Multi-wound Models vs Multi-wound Weapons; Do unsaved wounds transfer to other models? | ||
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| Tweet Topic Started: 15th June 2012 - 02:00 PM (1,276 Views) | ||
| Wolffgard | 15th June 2012 - 02:00 PM Post #1 | |
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Clanrat
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Greetings! I find the rules on page 45 difficult to intrepid. Maybe because English is not my native language and I fail to balance wording with logic. Please help me understand On page 45 it is written: “….determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile). Add up all wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models, noting any spare wounds on the unit”. Does this mean: sum up total numbers of wounds removing models deducting numbers of wounds per model until you have one or more “pare wounds” that are given a model standing, or that only models killed by each individual hit are removed (does not sound right)? Lets say I fire a Cannon at a unit of 6 Ogres in a 3 X 2 formation, S10, going through both ranks. I “hit/go pass/ through” 2 models/ranks. I roll for multiple wounds and get 6 wounds on the first and 3 on the second. How many Ogres get killed and why? To make sure that “I get it” (please bear with me), I Zzzzap for 3 wounds on a unit with 6 Ogres, multiplying into 5, 3 and 2 wounds. How many Ogres get killed, and why? Regards, WolffGard |
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| SkavenDan | 15th June 2012 - 02:06 PM Post #2 | |
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Doomwheel Fanatic
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Each hit is worked out individually and only has the capably to remove one model that model may have up to 6 wounds if it has 3 and you roll 6 the extras go no where they are simply wasted. So a S10 cannon hit on 6 models can kill all 6 but only if you roll 6 dice for multiple wounds and they all come up 3+ as for the zzzzap 5 = 1 dead ogre 3 = 1 dead ogre 2 = ogre with a remaining wound left. |
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| tezzmaniak | 15th June 2012 - 02:32 PM Post #3 | |
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THE Abomination
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BTW that is with a WLC with a normal cannon you have to kill the first (multi wound) model to go on to the second rank. Wounds are not transfered as stated above.
Edited by tezzmaniak, 15th June 2012 - 02:36 PM.
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| Warlock Matik | 15th June 2012 - 02:38 PM Post #4 | |
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(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1
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The key thing in the wording is that unsaved wounds are multiplied. So you get one hit on one model which fails it saves and suffers one wound which is then multiplied up, and if it suffers more wounds than it has then the excess are discounted. So in your two examples: The first ogre wounded by the cannon suffers 6 wounds, this is more than his 3 so dies then the extra 3 are ignored. The second ogre suffers three wounds which is exactly enough to kill him. For the doomwheel, the first ogre suffers 5 wounds, dies and then the remianing two are ignored. The second ogre suffers three wounds which is just enough to kill him. The third ogre suffers two wounds, leaving him alive on one. |
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| tezzmaniak | 15th June 2012 - 03:16 PM Post #5 | |
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THE Abomination
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good point unsaved wounds. My points was that a cannonball can get stuck in the first model it hits when penetrating ranks where a WLC doesn't. Small difference big effect :-P | |
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Diary: Vampire Hunters Bloodbowl : My bloodbowl team Achivements: Vampire Hunters Achivements P.R.S. complete = 51 2012 golden rat entry= HERE "Some factual information for you. Have you any idea how much damage that bulldozer would suffer if I just let it roll straight over you?" "How much?" said Arthur. "None at all," said Mr. Prosser. 9th Creator of the UnderEmpire Achievements ![]() | ||
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| Wolffgard | 15th June 2012 - 03:28 PM Post #6 | |
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Clanrat
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Thanks! But what happens if you woud one Ogre 2 times and yet another 1 time? Is it OK to have multiple wounded mothels in a unit with the same caracteristic with "left over wounds" (ia. one wound left and two wounds left) ? Cheers, Wolffgard |
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| Nurglitch IX | 15th June 2012 - 03:59 PM Post #7 | |
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Avatar by count zero
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Theoretically yes. In practice will will almost never happen. INTERATE: Clarification - this requires the unit have more than 1 Model Type. 2 Ogres Bulls with 3 wounds between them means you have 1 dead Ogre Bull. But an Ogre Bull in a unit with a FireBelly could have 1 wound on the FireBelly, 2 on a Bull. Edited by Nurglitch IX, 15th June 2012 - 04:08 PM.
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| Warlock Matik | 15th June 2012 - 04:17 PM Post #8 | |
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(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1
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I think it's more likely than you'd think Bounty: consider a WLC against ogre blocks - you could easily leave multiple models with various wounds remaining. |
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| Nurglitch IX | 15th June 2012 - 04:20 PM Post #9 | |
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Avatar by count zero
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Ok, here's what I'm seeing, with an example, is this correct? WLC shot v. Ogres 1) Determine how many Ogres are under the template 2) Roll 1 Save for each Ogre 'hit' - NOTE THIS NUMBER AS W 3) Roll 1d6 for each Ogre Wounded - This is your Wound Pool 4) [optional] add any Wounds on the unit from previous attacks 5) Divide Wound Pool by 3 - NOTE THIS NUMBER AS M - NOTE any remainder 6) Remove the SMALLER of M or W 7) [optional] If M is smaller, puth Remainder Wound counters on the unit For Zzzzap it would be the same thing, but W is ALWAYS 1, and you go through it 3 times. |
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| SkavenDan | 15th June 2012 - 04:41 PM Post #10 | |
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Doomwheel Fanatic
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1) Yes 2) Cannons allow no save 3) well it's only a pool for the unsaved wounds that did not slay an ogre out right. 4) ? not sure what you mean here 5) No the ones that rolled 3 or higher killed a model you do not add them all together! you do however add the wounds from hits that did not kill entire ogres together but that is after the others are removed. 6) not required follow steps 1 - 5 7) see 6 |
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| Warlock Matik | 15th June 2012 - 04:41 PM Post #11 | |
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(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1
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TINKER: Nevermind, think I was mixing in the 40K wound allocation rule for no reason
Edited by Warlock Matik, 15th June 2012 - 04:57 PM.
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| CapAmr05 | 15th June 2012 - 05:14 PM Post #12 | |
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Wrong. Cannons allow no Armor Saves. Ogres are notorious for getting Regen and also have access to the Iron Curse Icon; so yes, there are various ways to save against Cannon shots outside of armor available to Ogres. --Cap |
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Lonewolf Grand Tournament April 28-30 The Beer Phase Podcast Clan Skrittar | ||
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| SkavenDan | 15th June 2012 - 05:17 PM Post #13 | |
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Doomwheel Fanatic
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Ha yeah I had forgot about the regen spell. Don't let them cast that lol | |
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| Nurglitch IX | 15th June 2012 - 05:43 PM Post #14 | |
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Avatar by count zero
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Oye, this is what I get for trying to be specific, i'ts never super specific enough... Ignoring that I'm gonna have to redo 1-4 for pendant #5 - the rules for Multi-multi on 45 are as follows (with call outs for discussion below)
So: 1 Determine {base} Wounds. This is how you normally do a template, and would be steps 1 and 2 above. 2 ??? - This is the source of the confusion I think. I still don't get what it means, but I take it to work into step 6, more on that in a minute 3 ADD the Wounds. This is the Crus of the matter, and steps 3 and 4. MODELS ARE NOT WOUNDED. UNITS ARE WOUNDED. Models however are Hit, and Models are removed. So an Attack that does WOUNDS to the UNIT, in terms of Models, requires that your Multiple Wounds be Added into a pool of wounds taken by the unit. 4 remove a number of Models. Here's where the division comes in. If a unit takes 36 Wounds, you removed 36 Wounds worth of models. The problem with multi-multi is that the second multi is limited by models hit, hense the need for pool and divide. 5 Note on UNIT. Spare wounds (provided you didn't kill every thing) go on the unit, not on an individual model. So To update and generic the list: 1) Determine how many models are HIT (roll to hit, or template) 2) Determine how many models are Wounded (roll to wound, armor save if applicable, ward save if applicable) 2a) This is the number of WOUNDED models. You may never remove more than this number of Casualties 3) Determine how many WOUNDS are done. (Multiwound rolls plus 'spare wounds' already on Unit) 4) Remove Wounds worth of Wounded models. 4a) If there are Wounds, and Wounded Models, left note 'spare wounds' on the unit. And for a specific Example WLC launches a S10 shot through 3 ranks of Ogre Bulls with 1 'spare wound' from an earlier attack. 1) 3 Bulls (one for each rank) are HIT by the template 2) We're going to assume all 3 S10 shots wound. There's no armor or ward saves allowed or available 2a) There are 3 Wounded Models. 3) We roll 3d6, getting 5,3,1. We add these, and the 1 spare, to get 10 wounds. 4) We remove 10 Wounds of Bulls, or all 3. 4a) There are remaining Wounds, but not remaining Wounded Models, so the last wound is 'lost'. Variations: * Had one of the 3 Wound rolls in step2 came up a 1, There would be only 2 wounded models. step3 would have been 2d6 instead. * Had the 3d6 come up 2,2,1, the pool would be 6, and 2 models would have been removed. This does clear the 'spare wound' off the unit. * Had the 3d6 come up 2,2,3, the pool would be 8, and 2 models would have been removed. There would then have been remaining wounds and wounded models in step4a, so the unit would now have 2 'spare wounds' instead of the 1 'spare wound' it started with. Is that clearer? Edited by Nurglitch IX, 15th June 2012 - 05:49 PM.
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| CapAmr05 | 15th June 2012 - 06:49 PM Post #15 | |
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Your methodology is wrong Bounty. Your math ignores this clause: (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile.). The rolled 5 would be defaulted to a 3 since it would outright kill 1 model and the 2 bonus wounds are lost not added back into the total. The total would not be 10 it would be 8; Your total would be: 3 (originally 5), 3, 1 + 1 previous = 8 wounds. Two models die and one ogre is left with 2 wounds in his back pocket. --Cap Edited by CapAmr05, 15th June 2012 - 06:57 PM.
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