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Hell Pit of Abomination; Random movement – charge - arc
Topic Started: 13th June 2012 - 10:44 PM (1,837 Views)
Wolffgard
Clanrat
Greetings fellow Clan Generals!

During one of my last games I was confronted by a player who clamed I could not pivot the Hell pit and “charge” into the side of one of he’s units unless I was in his “side arc”.

I disagreed. My reason is that the Hell pit uses the Random Movement Rule and as such does not declare a normal charge using normal line of sight etc, and that the corresponding “arc” rules therefore does not apply. It simply pivots on the spot and moves 3D6 head on and smashes into whatever is in its way.

In the main role book (Random movement) it says that “once” contact is made, the “movement” follows all the normal rules regarding a charge. In my opinion this does not mean that the Hell pit has to take into account the “normal” front-, side- and rear arc rules. It hits the point of contact, close the door, and that’s it!

Am I wrong?

Cheers,
WolffGard
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Wolffgard
13th June 2012 - 10:44 PM
Greetings fellow Clan Generals!

During one of my last games I was confronted by a player who clamed I could not pivot the Hell pit and “charge” into the side of one of he’s units unless I was in his “side arc”.

I disagreed. My reason is that the Hell pit uses the Random Movement Rule and as such does not declare a normal charge using normal line of sight etc, and that the corresponding “arc” rules therefore does not apply. It simply pivots on the spot and moves 3D6 head on and smashes into whatever is in its way.

In the main role book (Random movement) it says that “once” contact is made, the “movement” follows all the normal rules regarding a charge. In my opinion this does not mean that the Hell pit has to take into account the “normal” front-, side- and rear arc rules. It hits the point of contact, close the door, and that’s it!

Am I wrong?

Cheers,
WolffGard
:rogre2:
Yes.


FAQ errata's army book to "has Random Movement." Random Movement says to measure, and if the distance would encounter a unit, resolve as a charge, but with no reaction. So if over half of the front facing of the Abomb is in the front arc of the enemy unit, it's a normal charge, even if you'f have clipped his tail end.
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Git-Git
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13th June 2012 - 10:56 PM
Yes.


FAQ errata's army book to "has Random Movement." Random Movement says to measure, and if the distance would encounter a unit, resolve as a charge, but with no reaction. So if over half of the front facing of the Abomb is in the front arc of the enemy unit, it's a normal charge, even if you'f have clipped his tail end.
I was all but certain you were wrong, but after checking all sources I am glad to have learned another rule. :) Thanks, Bounty.
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scratchydoom
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So you pivot until your facing and then charge the section of the enemy unit that is in the majority of your front arc? Rather confused!
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scratchydoom
13th June 2012 - 11:49 PM
So you pivot until your facing and then charge the section of the enemy unit that is in the majority of your front arc? Rather confused!
Pivot, roll, measure.

If you would touch an enemy unit at any point in your move

stop.
Wheel up to 90 degrees to maximise contact in the face you are in.
Move into base contact
Close the door
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Mathusala0
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that is correct.

only thing I'll add is that the pivot itself is part of movement, and should the pivot take you into base contact it counts as a charge (an awkward charge, but a charge non the less) this is important to remember as it reduces the impact of the "boxing" tactic
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scratchydoom
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just to clarify:
If my helpit is running down the right flank and is currently facing of the board. Next turn my opponents move an infantry up to the left of my helpitt abomination. I now have two choices: direct his random movement at their flank, or direct the ranodm movement towards their front. What is the correct one? or is it up to me?
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CapAmr05
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Bounty is correct.

Read Page 21. The determination of what section of the enemy unit you end up in depends on where your abomination starts it's move from in relation to the Zones of your enemy's unit (their front flank or rear). If the abomination's model is in their flank zone, it charges the flank, sure on a different random distance angle it could hit the front also, but that's not legal per rules of engagement on 21.

We had this same problem in the old rules when the Doomwheel could pivot as much as it wanted with all of it's distance, people thought they could roll around from the front arc and charge the rear of a unit. This same principle remains in the game today, contact from "random movement" is considered a charge move and therefore follows the rules of flank/ rear charges (Page 21).

Old FAQ from 7th Edition as reference to GW thinking
Quote:
 
Q. Can a Doomwheel start its move in a unit’s
front arc and move around the target in order to
charge it in the flank, or from the flank to the rear,
or even from the front to the rear, for that matter?
A. No, the Doomwheel must still obey the charging
rule stating that it must charge the target in the
same arc it begins the charge movement in.


This same logic is still present on Page 21. IF the majority of your unit's models lie in one of the enemy's zones (Front, Flank, Rear) then that's where the charge would make contact. Now because the Abomination is a single model, per 21 if it's straddling a line (and your opponent doesn't want to agree where the majority is); then you can dice it and that's where he'll end up.

No Scratchy; you do not get to pick, the charge angle is based on where you lie within your enemy's zones, not your charging model's zones.

--Cap
Edited by CapAmr05, 14th June 2012 - 03:10 AM.
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scratchydoom
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Thanks cap! very clear,
My guess would have been where the centre of the model sits at the start of the model in reference to the enemies arcs.... Ie if your centre lies in the front arc you must charge the front arc.
:bow: very well written cap
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scratchydoom
14th June 2012 - 03:21 AM
Thanks cap! very clear,
My guess would have been where the centre of the model sits at the start of the model in reference to the enemies arcs.... Ie if your centre lies in the front arc you must charge the front arc.
:bow: very well written cap
If you cared to you could prove mathematically that the side including the center is always strictly larger than the side without, regardless of where you draw the division.
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CapAmr05
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That's what I would think too Scratchy, but the wording only discusses number of models, not percentage of the base (of a single model unit); so while it's a reasonable conclusion, not every opponent is going to necessarily agree with that interpretation.

--Cap
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Rein bringer of the cheese
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The majority of the models in the front rank determines where. So If you straddle two zones you can always elect to throw a dice ;)

And I dont think that it says anywhere that you cannot connect to the unit using the shortest path, whatever zone you are in.
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Rein bringer of the cheese
14th June 2012 - 06:31 PM
The majority of the models in the front rank determines where. So If you straddle two zones you can always elect to throw a dice ;)

And I dont think that it says anywhere that you cannot connect to the unit using the shortest path, whatever zone you are in.
It never says you can't use the shortest path. It does say you must impact the face you're attacking into, and that you must maximize the number of models in base to base. These two requirements MIGHT mean you can't use the shortest path.
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CapAmr05
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Quote:
 
And I dont think that it says anywhere that you cannot


These type of statements almost never pan out in GW rulings. Remember just because it doesn't say "you can't" doesn't mean it says "you can" either.

The lack of a restriction is not necessarily permission.

The lack of permission is not necessarily a restriction.

Quote:
 
It does say you must impact the face you're attacking into, and that you must maximize the number of models in base to base. These two requirements MIGHT mean you can't use the shortest path


There's no "might" about it; the Random Movement rules clearly state that should the distance rolled take the model into contact (remember it tells you to measure first, before moving, so there should be no question), then it must follow the "normal charge rules". Page 21 is part of the "normal charge rules".

--Cap
Edited by CapAmr05, 14th June 2012 - 07:58 PM.
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