| Slaves with spears and shields, an absolute waste of points, OR IS IT?; For 1 extra point per model, does it make a difference? Have your say today! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 30th May 2012 - 02:30 AM (2,758 Views) | |
| SlaveKicker | 27th June 2012 - 10:20 PM Post #46 |
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Clanrat
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Your math is off. "Save" will never be worse than "no save". Also, it's not simple math because it's not a linear progression, you need the difference in the areas under the curves, not the difference at the midpoints. Consider 3d6 vs. 1d20. The average roll in both cases is 10.5. The odds of rolling higher than midpoint is 50% in both cases. But the odds of rolling higher than 15.75 (rough call for 75%) are 4 in 20 for the d20, (20%) but only 10 in 216, or 4.6% for the 3d6. Same is going to apply when you go from 3d6 rolls (hit, wound, armor) to 4d6 rolls (hit, wound, armor, ward) - the curve is going to change more than the midpoint.[/quote]The point I was making is that spending 1/4 of the points of the model to save it 1/6 of the time is pointless. |
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| Nurglitch IX | 27th June 2012 - 10:46 PM Post #47 |
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Avatar by count zero
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Not always. Remember that you also get a +1 to Armor, so you occasionally get 1/3 rather than 1/4. Also, every save you make is one less you need to worry about for Combat Resoution, if you worry about that (slaves often don't) and every saved model is 1 more before you loose SiN, which DEFINATELY matters with slaves. Finally, and this is always my biggest point) all these maths assume that you're allowed to field Slaves as 20+. If you're at a tourney where slaves are actually 20-40 (or horrors, 20-30) Then there's also a value add there because even if you had the points for 10 slaves or 40 shields, only 1 can be added to the unit. |
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| SlaveKicker | 28th June 2012 - 06:49 AM Post #48 |
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Clanrat
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With regards to your first point you are correct about the 6+ armour save, which I did mention in my original reply and said there was a minor bonus against str 3 foes. But against str 4 foes and foes with halberds, great weapons and the like, the points spent on shields are wasted. Also, Your slaves will more likely be tackling these stronger types of unit because you want to hold them up and be shooting into the combat with Warp Lightning Cannons hitting extra models because of how many ranks are in the slave unit and there is a larger target. With regards to your point about leadership and strength in numbers, why not just take a naked Warlock Engineer babysitter for 15pts which is cheaper than buying shields for the whole unit of 40? It gives you +2 leadership and due to the amount of ranks in the slave unit you will probably be getting +3 strength in numbers anyway unless your opponant causes more than 20 wounds from a 5-7 frontage. Also, I couldn't agree more with your final point. My lack of tournament play means I didn't really ponder a unit cap. If one is in place then it is most certainly worth investing a few points into. |
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| Nurglitch IX | 28th June 2012 - 04:41 PM Post #49 |
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Avatar by count zero
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Granted The unit I've had the most experience with using slaves against is a real Grinder of unit (Frenzied Corsairs, occasionally buffed with Occams) so my numbers may be high, but I see a LOT of damage come through. I personally have done 16 wounds to my slaves in a single magic round, 30 if you count the other unit of slaves in his flank. (BTW, I *LOVE* Plague) The problem with a naked Engineer in CC is that he's got worse saves than the Slave, and since he's an IC he can be targeted. 1 round of attacks from a model or 2 that negate the shield bonus are enough to kill him, and then you loose it all. Engineers are much better for protecting against shooting and magic. |
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| Mathusala0 | 28th June 2012 - 04:51 PM Post #50 |
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The Evil Underlord
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first off, GT standards are pretty much 50 these days. there has never been a cap on unit sizes excluding ETC (which is not warhammer, it's ETC) and when you hit 50 you tend to add shields over more models because of the unwieldiness of adding models. furthermore, SIN is not the key issue so much as steadfast. by the time your losing SIN you should have already lost steadfast a long time ago. as such the leadership of the slaves (who should always be inside your bubble) is irrelevant. Furthermore adding a warlock to the unit removes the key ability to fire into combats involving that unit (though on a side note is also a way to prevent the enemy killing the warlock as sometimes letting the slaves stay an extra turn is better than the barrage of warpstone fueled artillery |
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