| Slaves with spears and shields, an absolute waste of points, OR IS IT?; For 1 extra point per model, does it make a difference? Have your say today! | ||
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| Tweet Topic Started: 30th May 2012 - 02:30 AM (2,760 Views) | ||
| Nurglitch IX | 5th June 2012 - 02:07 AM Post #31 | |
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Avatar by count zero
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My personal theory is make Unit +4 models, 50/50 mix. So if you want 30 Slaves, make 17 with spears and 17 with hand weapons. That way you can quickly WYSIWYG back and forth for trials. | |
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| Hellhammer | 10th June 2012 - 12:16 AM Post #32 | |
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We the Hive summon you
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I think the real question here is what Warlord in all his Skavenous betrayal would give lowly slaves shields!! I personally would tell them they are going to get shields to get them into battle before sending them forward without!! Slaves with shields....really....... ha ha |
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| Rageaholic | 10th June 2012 - 12:25 AM Post #33 | |
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Doomwheel Driver
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That's a very mean trick to play. I tell my slaves to get into battle, they are better off probably dying than certainly dying if they refuse. And they can have any equipment they like. They just need to collect it from the dead. Once everyone else has had their choice of course. |
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| Hellhammer | 10th June 2012 - 12:29 AM Post #34 | |
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We the Hive summon you
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I take that as a high complement lol | |
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| Royos | 10th June 2012 - 01:05 AM Post #35 | |
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I dont know, in some of the stories slaves can quickly turn on their masters and ruin the day. Packed together they can be an imposing little bunch of nastiness and resentment. I know according to the fluff, even bad ass grey seers wont go near a pack of slaves without a heavy guard of storm vermin for protection. So if I was a skaven warlord, then the way I would think about it is, either keep the slaves happy, or kill them. As far as shields are concerned, well ive got IOB minis, so who can be bothered cutting those shields off seriously? Anyway, I dont mind the shield, will let them stay alive a little bit longer. I imagine the type of shield a slave would be issued would be similair to the ones the IOB minis are holding anyway, just a few planks of wood taked together. So, ive started painting the slaves now, im going with hand weapons and shields for all. Ive thrown in 3 or 4 short spears for the whole unit just to add a bit of variety. Im painting them with leather armour and dulled bronze weapons just to make them different from the clanrats. As soon as I have a few more painted up Ill post them for scrutiny. I should start a diary perhaps...? naa. |
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| Royhammer (Army Diary) | ||
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| Hellhammer | 10th June 2012 - 01:26 AM Post #36 | |
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We the Hive summon you
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My Slaves would find it hard to pass the censor bearers MUH HA HA but you're totally right I'd use them with shields if It meant saving me from cutting of the moulded shields |
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| Grey Seer Kwokka | 10th June 2012 - 04:00 AM Post #37 | |
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I'm a rat, I'm a rat, I'm a clever-clever rat!
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A cunning warlord, Skaven or not, would make use of any tools necessary to get what they want. If a Skavenslave regiment holds an enemy unit up for an extra turn before exploding so that someone else may pass, then giving them shields to do that sounds like a good idea to me. |
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| IT'S INSANE!: The army diary for Clan Kwokka (sub-sect of Clan Volkn), currently led by Krushklaw the Mad, the evincar of evisceration. | ||
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| Hellhammer | 10th June 2012 - 04:17 AM Post #38 | |
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We the Hive summon you
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Don't take me too seriously ha ha
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| Royos | 13th June 2012 - 06:09 AM Post #39 | |
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Yea, me too. So its about trying to make them different from the clan rats. To do this Ive done a similair thing to you. 1. All the alsves have rags or limited armour. 2. all the noticable armour is painted as leather and not metallic. 3. most of the weapons are pretty basic, all the good stuff has been allocated to the clan rats. 4. the bladed weapons that they do have is painted as old rusted bronze stuff. hopefully these things can be contrasted with the clanrats. the clanrats will have more armour, more iron, better weapons and bolder looking uniforms. Should do the trick. And also it seems great minds think alike.
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| Royhammer (Army Diary) | ||
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| HarleyXJGuy | 13th June 2012 - 07:38 PM Post #40 | |
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Grey Seer
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I run my Slaves naked as the day they were born. I think the real question is why you are only using 30 slaves in a 1500 list. Bring more. But for example in your 30 rat unit if you give them shields it costs you 15 points right? For 15 points you get 7 or 8 more Slaves. In the course of a average game do you make 7 parry saves in close combat? Also more Slaves works for shooting and magic casualties. With that said if you are using IoB Rats for your Slaves I would not make to much fun of you for giving them shields. You could just use IoB models for Clanrats and regular models for your Slaves and remember that more then half the unit has to have the correct equipment per the rulebook. So some Rats with shields in the rear ranks is fine. Like they are the smarter ones, having shields and staying near the rear. |
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| Royos | 15th June 2012 - 11:04 AM Post #41 | |
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Harley, Na, Ive got 60 slaves in the 1500 point list. Im just painting my first 30 base unit. |
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| Royhammer (Army Diary) | ||
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| tezzmaniak | 15th June 2012 - 02:43 PM Post #42 | |
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THE Abomination
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I think shields are worth considering if there is a model max on units (as happens in some tournements). You can consider shields on your 30 or 40 unit slaves to add some staying power. Also when you know you are playing a table with a lot of scenery or a very small table you may consider shields for manouverability. 30 slaves is easier to manouvre then 50 between buildings and impossible terrain. | |
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Diary: Vampire Hunters Bloodbowl : My bloodbowl team Achivements: Vampire Hunters Achivements P.R.S. complete = 51 2012 golden rat entry= HERE "Some factual information for you. Have you any idea how much damage that bulldozer would suffer if I just let it roll straight over you?" "How much?" said Arthur. "None at all," said Mr. Prosser. 9th Creator of the UnderEmpire Achievements ![]() | ||
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| SkavenDan | 15th June 2012 - 03:14 PM Post #43 | |
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Doomwheel Fanatic
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I always use shields it upsets math hammer average people who jump up and down going you shouldn't have parried more than one!!! Spears don't use no more. |
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| SlaveKicker | 27th June 2012 - 07:16 PM Post #44 | |
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Clanrat
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By simply doing the math you can find the answer. Spears: In a unit of 30 in ranks of 5, spears will cost you 15 points. In one round of combat in which you didn't charge (because you want to get use out of the spears ASAP, meaning in the first round of combat you have to make up the -2 difference in combat res) this gives you an extra 5 attacks which will only on average cause a single wound (1.25) against toughness 3 models. If you're fighting toughness 4 then the story gets worse (0.83 wounds). Basically, it's a waste considering the fight will probably not last more than 2-3 combat phases. Shields In the same unit of 30, again, this costs us 15 points. This gives us a parry and armour save of 6+. So, for every 6 wounds caused by strength 3, we save 1.83 slaves. If we didn't have shields we would lose 12 points worth of slaves. With them we lose 10.45. A minor bonus. Strength 4, which nullifies the armour save however, we save only 1 out of 6 wounds. Without shields we lose 12 points. With shields we lose 12.5 points which means we are worse off by taking shields. In conclusion, if we are writing a tailored list against a strength 3 foe, then maybe shields are a slight advantage and spears are 50/50. However, when writing a general list when not knowing your foe, neither is a good option as the points can be well spent on other models and gear such as rat darts, doom rockets etc. Also, this is my first post on The Underempire forum so feel free to kick my ideas back at me and call me a noob. It's okay, SlaveKicker picks on lower beings and hides from bigger scary ones. |
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| Nurglitch IX | 27th June 2012 - 07:47 PM Post #45 | |
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Avatar by count zero
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Your math is off. "Save" will never be worse than "no save". Also, it's not simple math because it's not a linear progression, you need the difference in the areas under the curves, not the difference at the midpoints. Consider 3d6 vs. 1d20. The average roll in both cases is 10.5. The odds of rolling higher than midpoint is 50% in both cases. But the odds of rolling higher than 15.75 (rough call for 75%) are 4 in 20 for the d20, (20%) but only 10 in 216, or 4.6% for the 3d6. Same is going to apply when you go from 3d6 rolls (hit, wound, armor) to 4d6 rolls (hit, wound, armor, ward) - the curve is going to change more than the midpoint. |
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