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Frenzied frenzy
Topic Started: 14th May 2012 - 02:22 PM (723 Views)
plasiu
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uh, ok, now, first of all Hi, My name is Plasiu, and i have frenzy, i'm really hoping that this FA meeting will help me with my addiction to tearing my enemies limb from limb and snacking on their tasty insides....

Ok joke aside, We know frenzy we love frenzy, we hate frenzy....

Plague monks are probably my favourite unit in the etire game but that damn frenzy rule can be a tad annoying. the need to charge to kill-kill...
You see, i play against a nasty empire( and sometimes a dwarf player) amd they both found a cruel way to take care of my monks... they make a very small unit and i mean TINY, like minimum size and they just bait my monks out of position then BLAST them to itty bitty ratty pieces...

IT'S HIGHLY ANNOYING! so i was wondering if you guys had any tips on how to limit the negative aspects of frenzy. Should i deploy my monks farther from the front line? on a flank? protected by slaves?

I do not have acces to a plague furnace because we only play small small games.

Thanks in advance
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Scarr, Reincarnated
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You can use Giant Rats to go after his small units. They actually fare pretty well against other types of chaff. You could also use a small unit of Censer Bearers in front of your Plague Monks. If the Dwarf player uses an Organ Gun, shoot it down using Gutter Runners.
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Nurglitch IX
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There are 3 ways to avoid making an undesireable charge: Leadership, Blocking, Redirecting.

1) Leadership: Monks have Ld 5, that's an 8 with SiN. Add a priest it's 9, within 12" of the BSB that's rerollable. This is great for first turn, giving you time for

2) Blocking: Monks move 5, but Giant Rats move 6. If there's a unit of Giant Rats between your monks and the bait, or engadged with the bait they can't declare a legal charge. A 23 point "Chauffeur" unit deployed 1 inch away from your monks on whichever side of the board the bait is on a very wise investment.

3) Redirecting: This is my favorite, the rules say "legal charge" not "nearest unit". At least once every other game I declare a 17" Charge with my Monks not because I think I can make it, but because I don't want to chase down the bait that's 6 inches away. Sure a d6 of Stumble isn't as good as two 5" moves, but its a far site better than a guided tour of the dangerous terrain over at the board edge.
Edited by Nurglitch IX, 14th May 2012 - 04:55 PM.
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Scarr, Reincarnated
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I think the problem is not much from the leadership bit, but it is mostly because you have to pursue and overrun, which is not desirable most of the time when your opponent plays well with his tiny units.
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Nurglitch IX
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Scarr, Reincarnated
14th May 2012 - 05:13 PM
I think the problem is not much from the leadership bit, but it is mostly because you have to pursue and overrun, which is not desirable most of the time when your opponent plays well with his tiny units.
But you only pursue and overrun if you charge, and you only charge if you fail leadership.
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CapAmr05
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You still pursue if you didn't charge. So if an enemy runs into your monks and doesn't entirely get wiped out, then breaks and runs, your monks still go after them.

You just can't overrun when you haven't charged. So in the same situation above, but you wipe out the enemy unit, your monks sit there (but they can make a free reform).

--Cap
Edited by CapAmr05, 14th May 2012 - 06:08 PM.
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CapAmr05
14th May 2012 - 05:54 PM
You still pursue if you didn't charge. So if an enemy runs into your monks and doesn't entirely get wiped out, then breaks and runs, you're monks stil go after them.
True, but....

1) I face my monks at my target
2) You charge into my monks
3) You loose
4) You flee directly away from my monks.

You should now be fleeing directly twards my target. Now granted this doesn't cover flank or rear, but if you're getting hit with flank charges from redirectors we've got other tactics we need to work with you on first.
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CapAmr05
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Pulling you directly forward can still cause plenty of problems. For example, any new unit you run into while pursuing can pull you into a different direction, because your monks will be "charging" said new unit and thus will line up to them (pulling you out of your original lineup). And thus the chaining/ baiting can begin.

--Cap
Edited by CapAmr05, 14th May 2012 - 06:08 PM.
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CapAmr05
14th May 2012 - 06:07 PM
Pulling you directly forward can still cause plenty of problems. For example, any new unit you run into while pursuing can pull you into a different direction, because your monks will be "charging" said new unit and thus will line up to them (pulling you out of your original lineup). And thus the chaining/ baiting can begin.
True, but now we've got someone who managed to get not one, but two redirectors into position in the main combat for the sole purpose of drawing off one unit. That's a very advanced tactic though, one that's going to leave him weaken other places.
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CapAmr05
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You're talking about a points tradeoff. Redirectors are cheap a big block of decked out plague monks is not. Pulling monks into a no-man's land leaves him in the exact opposite of a weakened position. He's pulling them out of the combat game for at least 2 turns; exactly what they want to happen.

Empire, Lizards, Ogres, Skaven, Darkelves, Higheleves, Woodelves (maybe a few more I'm not thinking of) all have the resources/ unit options to pull it off.

--Cap
Edited by CapAmr05, 14th May 2012 - 07:25 PM.
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I agree with cap on this one, redirectors are cheap enough to sacrifice in order of keeping those monks away from your lines. If a monk horde with the plague banner hits anything it will be devastating even without a furnace.

Frenzy is a poisenous gift as some might say. That extra attack and that immune to psychology are really nice to have, but the must pursue and overrun. In order for this tactic to work best you don't charge the monks but stand 1 inch away from them and face yourself in such a way that the overrun of his charge will take you away from where you need to be. Either that or don't charge and waste a turn trying to shoot and cast the director into it's demise so you are free to charge next turn. This is actually the reason that i have begon taking the ruby ring of fire on my priest in my monks, that and a token to cast it with.

As for the record Cap, you forget some other armies that can direct you with ease : Daemons, beastmen, Vampire Counts (Since all of them have small flying units), Orcs and gobbo's (a big boss on a wolf is really cheap and fast aswell, Any other skaven with giant rats or naked warlocks, and even Chaos warriors can use their hounds or marauder horsemen to redirect you.

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CapAmr05
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ReDirect yes, every army can pull off cheap redirectors; [I had a dwarf opponent that used a minned out unit of 5 hammerers or longbeards or whatever they were to stall my monks one time.]

The Pursuit-Pulling Bounty and I were discussing is impossible for VC, TK and Daemons to do since they never run away.

Pulling is as big a threat as redirectors, back (in older editions) when Hatred was forced to pursue, I would lead around Darkelves and Khorne-point-and-click armies all day long with pursuit pulls (I really miss that).

--Cap
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CapAmr05
14th May 2012 - 10:11 PM
ReDirect yes, every army can pull off cheap redirectors; [I had a dwarf opponent that used a minned out unit of 5 hammerers or longbeards or whatever they were to stall my monks one time.]

The Pursuit-Pulling Bounty and I were discussing is impossible for VC, TK and Daemons to do since they never run away.

Pulling is as big a threat as redirectors, back (in older editions) when Hatred was forced to pursue, I would lead around Darkelves and Khorne-point-and-click armies all day long with pursuit pulls (I really miss that).

--Cap
So how do you stop Trival Pursuits *rim-shot* other than making sure you always wipeout your enemy?
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Squeeze blocking works fairly well. It requires that you have a coordinated later plan (viable charges to get blocking units out of the way for when you do want to charge with the monks), but essentially you have a friendly unit (or two) in front of one or both corners of your monks, so that if they overrun they don't go too far and will stop and inch behind (a point that you dictate). It's self bottlenecking basically, if your monks can't get through, they can't charge (which helps with people trying to bait your unit too), no need to frenzy test if it's impossible to charge.

Nothing ever works 100% of the time, but it's been pretty reliable for me.

--Cap

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