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When we get our new book...,; In a few years
Topic Started: 17th April 2012 - 10:57 AM (4,067 Views)
Grey Seer Exahm
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Gribbly
Okay, so I've been watching Warhammer-Empire for the last two weeks or so and MY. GOD.

The amount of whining and moaning about their new book is insane. It's not a bad book by any means, but it seems like people are bitching because they basically fixed the things that were broken about the book. I mean, just look at this.

But this isn't a thread about that...sort of.

I'm just wondering if we can expect the same amount of bitching when skaven inevitably get updated? Can we expect; "Slaves went down to Str2 but up a point? THEY'RE USELESS NOW!" or "Doomwheels only do Multiple Wound D3 and up to 200pts? Guess someone hates skaven," perhaps even "Where did all out magic items go? This is awful" (which is a complaint I've seen on Warhammer Empire apparently ignoring the trend of 8th Ed books) It seems to be the trend with books that are considered "powerful", that as soon as they get updated everyone starts complaining about no longer having an "I win" button.

Admittedly, this only applies to Vampire Counts and Empire, since Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms were badly outdated and the players were just happy to get attention, and O&G were the first book of 8th, so no one was sure what to think.

If anyone doesn't expect Skaven to lose a lot of what we have now, then they're fooling themselves, so prepare yourselves now so you can save us the whining and start working on shiny new tactics for when the new book does come.
Edited by Grey Seer Exahm, 17th April 2012 - 10:59 AM.
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Slide Shade
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It all depends on how the fixes are executed. (Vermin) Lord knows there's a ton of stuff in our book that needs attention, but hopefully they don't go overboard based on how hated some units are or based on the unproven-but-compelling idea that they intentionally nerf stuff that players already own in massive amounts to encourage the buying of new products.

By way of illustration, reasonable ways to fix Slaves would include those you mentioned (price increase, stats decrease) as well as a return of the Mainstay rule. An example of an unreasonable fix would be keeping them more-or-less the same as they are now but prohibiting them from using the General's leadership.
Edited by Slide Shade, 17th April 2012 - 11:14 AM.
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SkavenDan
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Do a few searchs you will hear the moans and groans.

The I JUST WON'T PLAY 9TH edition it sucks.....
Yeah mate you probably didn't play for the last 5 years so no1 cares go cry to yourself....

Updates that change a book often get moaned about.

Other races have slave envy they want the same but it doesn't fit the fluff!

The most popular thing is ALWAYS NERFED
AKA the rattling gun we all used them without even thinking about it.

When the skaven are updated I imagine slaves will go to 3pts and have the items choices included if you want them.
The cannon will be NERFED the doom rocket will be nerfed maybe the hellpit but I hope not because they would replace that will silly monster Mark II which would weewee me of even more.
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Grey Seer Kwokka
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People whinge. Entitlement syndrome is a serious social issue.

Ignoring it always works out best. Why let someone else's thoughts disrupt you playing with what you love?
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CapAmr05
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Quote:
 
"Where did all our magic items go? This is awful"


You're definitely going to hear this, not just from Skaven players but from everyone who gets an 8th edition book that only has 8 or so items. The odds that all 8 of the items that are kept are only the items a person cares about are incredibly small.

What used to make the game have so much variety in 5th edition was there were literally hundreds of magic item options, that was reduced a little by 6th (and people complained then too) and then maintained the trend somewhat in 7th edition. The constant push seems like it has been to get the game away from hero hammer and towards units, and then bigger units.

Dropping all but 8 items greatly reduces the variety of character builds you'll see, and should likely push players to units instead. It also looks like the trend is that items are so expensive that you won't often see a character carrying combinations of army specific items like they used to. It looks like the adding of new units and adding unit interactions (buffs, auras, benefits), is going to step into that gap a little bit, but I don't think it'll do it well enough to satisfy players.

I will tell you that I think the following items should make the 8th edition list because they have been present in the past 3 books (5th, 6th, and 7th);

Fellblade
Skalm
Skavenbrew
Sacred Standard of the Horned Rat
Brass Orb
Dwarf Slayer/Gouger

I think the Stormbanner has a good chance of making the cut. Warpstone tokens (if they remain as magic items and not mage equipment options) make the cut aswell.

I think the Brass Orb beats out the Doomrocket (who was only present in 7th and evidently draws the hate of everyone who plays against it).

--Cap
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I kinda like how GW nerfs the popular things. It brings other units or choices back to the top.
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Borgomos
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Depends on who will write the new book as well

Please, for the love of god, don't let it be Cruddance
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Scarr, Reincarnated
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I agree that that the book is seeming very downing for them actually.

Everyone (well mostly) liked the Vampire Counts book and I think it is a much better book than the new Empire one so there must be something there. Having many soldiers who get powerful because a few individual models just feels a bit wrong in my opinion for Empire.

I expect the Skaven book to be a bit random, like now, but probably even more focused on synergy. GW have opportunities to do that with Skaven, and I think they will.

Maybe we get big spawning babby blurgers that make new rats to "balance" that some of our units get up in points, but that fits really well.

Empire is meant to be a force where they work together, but I think Cruddace did it wrong. I still think it is more fun than the last book because I hated the Steam Tanks and War Altars then, but there is something missing or maybe even something a bit much about the new book.

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Nurglitch IX
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CapAmr05
17th April 2012 - 03:46 PM
Quote:
 
"Where did all our magic items go? This is awful"
You're definitely going to hear this, not just from Skaven players but from everyone who gets an 8th edition book that only has 8 or so items. The odds that all 8 of the items that are kept are only the items a person cares about are incredibly small.

--Cap
This ^. Going from 25 to 8 is rediculous, and Skaven are way over the 25 that most books have.

The one thing I am looking forward to though is the trend away from Exclusive Spell lists. Expect the Grey Seer to have 4 non-blendable spell lists to choose from next army book.
Edited by Nurglitch IX, 17th April 2012 - 04:21 PM.
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SlashSlash
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One can only hope that someone like Phil Kelly gets to write the book.

looking at the other books:

We will lose magic items, fact, nothing that can prevent that so we'll just have to get over it.
Slaves will probably be nerfed.

We have to start offering sacrifices to the great horned rat for ROgres to get better, along with Vermin Lords etc etc and try to look at the positives that will inevitably arise from the book.

There will be changes good and bad, all we can do at this stage unfortunately surmounts to conjecture.
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Scarr, Reincarnated
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SlashSlash
17th April 2012 - 05:45 PM
One can only hope that someone like Phil Kelly gets to write the book.
He is not really good with fantasy books. Half of the Beastmen book was his work.

The main thing with our book is that when things get better or worse, there are probably guaranteed that at least one unit is broken or very good.
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SkavenDan
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17th April 2012 - 05:45 PM
We have to start offering sacrifices to the great horned rat for ROgres to get better, along with Vermin Lords etc etc and try to look at the positives that will inevitably arise from the book.

SkavenDan gets out the sacrificial blades!
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Slide Shade
Chieftain
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17th April 2012 - 04:21 PM
CapAmr05
17th April 2012 - 03:46 PM
Quote:
 
"Where did all our magic items go? This is awful"
You're definitely going to hear this, not just from Skaven players but from everyone who gets an 8th edition book that only has 8 or so items. The odds that all 8 of the items that are kept are only the items a person cares about are incredibly small.

--Cap
This ^. Going from 25 to 8 is rediculous, and Skaven are way over the 25 that most books have.

The one thing I am looking forward to though is the trend away from Exclusive Spell lists. Expect the Grey Seer to have 4 non-blendable spell lists to choose from next army book.
The possible saving grace here is that we might get a few "extra" items in the form of the Scavenge Pile and ubiquitous choices like Weeping Blades, Skryre inventions, or the Plague Banner (in the same way that Empire Engineers got items and Blood Knights have personal access to the Banner of Blood Keep). We're still going to have to take a big haircut, though.
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Decker_cky
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CapAmr05
17th April 2012 - 03:46 PM
Quote:
 
"Where did all our magic items go? This is awful"


You're definitely going to hear this, not just from Skaven players but from everyone who gets an 8th edition book that only has 8 or so items. The odds that all 8 of the items that are kept are only the items a person cares about are incredibly small.

What used to make the game have so much variety in 5th edition was there were literally hundreds of magic item options, that was reduced a little by 6th (and people complained then too) and then maintained the trend somewhat in 7th edition. The constant push seems like it has been to get the game away from hero hammer and towards units, and then bigger units.

Dropping all but 8 items greatly reduces the variety of character builds you'll see, and should likely push players to units instead. It also looks like the trend is that items are so expensive that you won't often see a character carrying combinations of army specific items like they used to. It looks like the adding of new units and adding unit interactions (buffs, auras, benefits), is going to step into that gap a little bit, but I don't think it'll do it well enough to satisfy players.

I will tell you that I think the following items should make the 8th edition list because they have been present in the past 3 books (5th, 6th, and 7th);

Fellblade
Skalm
Skavenbrew
Sacred Standard of the Horned Rat
Brass Orb
Dwarf Slayer/Gouger

I think the Stormbanner has a good chance of making the cut. Warpstone tokens (if they remain as magic items and not mage equipment options) make the cut aswell.

I think the Brass Orb beats out the Doomrocket (who was only present in 7th and evidently draws the hate of everyone who plays against it).

--Cap
Fellblade -> Almost for sure in.
Skalm -> Gone with the healing potion as a basic item (although they did keep the armour of meteoric iron for empire, so who knows).
Skavenbrew -> Likely to stay
Sacred Standard of the Horned Rat -> Likely to stay....effect will likely change.
Brass Orb -> Likely to stay.
Dwarf Slayer/Gouger -> Becomes exclusive on Queek.

Weeping blades could return, either as upgrades for GR champ and assassins, or a magic weapon (current rules + paired weapons?).
Warpstone Armour could return, though maybe in a slightly different form.
Storm banner seems like an obvious choice to return, though I expect it to increase to BSB only again, or be further watered down (closer to the 1 turn beastmen item?).
Warpstone tokens, if they return will be just items a grey seer has.
Warpstone stars should return.
Smoke bombs will likely be an equipment option.
Warp scroll could return.
Plague banner will likely return in some form.

That has my predicted list as:
Fellblade
Skavenbrew
Sacred Standard of the Horned Rat
Brass Orb
Plague banner
Warpstone stars
Storm banner
Warpstone Armour

With a few more possibilities (some books have 10 I think):
Warp scroll
Weeping blades
Shield of distraction/cautious shield
Bands of power (possibly return this on sniktch?)

If scavenge pile is kept,you could have smoke bombs, weeping blades, warpstone tokens, shock-prod, things catcher, electro-whip and possibly even death globes in there.
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SlashSlash
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Not so secret 40k player
Scarr, Reincarnated
17th April 2012 - 06:03 PM
SlashSlash
17th April 2012 - 05:45 PM
One can only hope that someone like Phil Kelly gets to write the book.
He is not really good with fantasy books. Half of the Beastmen book was his work.
Sorry, long term 40k player making the transition here, although Kelly still has to be better than Cruddace
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