| Defeating Ogre Kingdoms; 8th Ed Specific Tactica | ||
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| Tweet Topic Started: 1st March 2012 - 06:39 AM (3,148 Views) | ||
| King Rat | 1st March 2012 - 06:39 AM Post #1 | |
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Grey Seer
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vs. Ogre Kingdoms (8th Ed Army Book). We have a wide range of troops that can deal quite well with the Ogres The Ogre Armies consist largely of Monstrous Infantry with low Initiative 2 troops. The Ogres are quite fast moving but will rarely be steadfast unless either a Maneater unit (with Stubborn) or one of their characters has the Crown of Command. Big blocks of Gnoblars are cheap and similar to our slaves but most Ogre armies will only use Gnoblars for their Trapper upgrade (charge them and you do a difficult terrain test). So most of the time our Rats units will be striking first with our higher Initiative. Another ogre weakness is their leadership. Most armies will run a Slaughtermaster Lvl4 these days as their general and he is only leadership 8, though he may be 9 if in an Iron-gut unit with Magic Leadership Banner. A few Ogre tricks to watch out for 1. Death-fisting Slaughter Master on a flying carpet (Lore of Death). This guy will snipe out our Mages quite successfully. Storm banner will reduce his speed for a turn or 2. 2. Scouting Maneaters Be aware of this possibility when deploying. Not to mention Gorgers which aren't as common these days. 3. Another trick to watch for is the Maneaters with Poison, Pistols and Banner of Eternal Flame. These guys will bring down Hellpits quite quickly. Note: Ogre Kingdoms is a much tougher army than in their previous book. There are a number of reasons for this. 1. Cheap re-directors in the form of Sabre Tusks (similar to our Rat darts). 2. Double Ironblasters can shoot off our Bell, Furnace, Solo characters, Doomwheels, Hellpits if we fail our Regen saves. 3. Ogres Firebelly gives them access to Flaming breath weapon and Fire Magic. 4. Mournfangs are fast and can do damage if we don't bog them down with slaves. Characters & Magic Items Magic Weapons that are good vs. multi wound creatures, are the Weeping Blades {D3 wounds) which can be taken by Gutter Runner Champions, as well as Characters, also the Blade of Corruption (wounds x2) & the Fell-blade (D6 wounds, opponent re-rolls ward saves) is great for killing Ogre Characters. A range of other Magic Weapons from the MRB are also useful. A Warlord with the Fellblade will chew through Ogres like a knife through butter, if you haven't tried this guy you should. Other useful Magic Items include the Brass Orb, Doom-rocket & Death Globes. One strategy which might work quite well is to try and Panic the Ogres, in this case items such as Sacred Banner of the horned rat (-1 to their Leadership), Portents of Verminous Doom (-1 to Leadership) Pipes of Piebald (Leadership test to charge unit) and Helm of Discord (MRB page 502) can help prevent the Ogres engaging our Rats. Spells such as Scorch or using the Ruby Ring can also help cause those extra panic tests. Magic Banners: The Storm Banner is very useful as most Ogre Armies will take double Iron-blasters and the Storm Banner will help neutralize them at least on the first turn of the game. The Razor Banner can also be useful to help bypass Ogre Armour, Eternal Flame to prevent buffed Ogres with Trollguts giving them Regen saves. Skaven Magic I would recommend some spells from Lore of Ruin and some from Lore of Plague. The most important spell to get is Cracks Call this can really hurt Ogres with their low initiative, when used alongside Skitterleap this spell can be really effective. Other Spells to take Skitterleap for Brass Orb guy, Warp-lightning (with condenser) for sniping Sabretusks, Gorgers, Giants, Leadbelchers, Scraplaunchers, Scorch for panicking troops not in range of BSB, Lore of Plague Spells to take are Wither, Plague, Bless with Filth are the most useful spells from this Lore. Leave the Dreaded 13th at home as it can only be used on Gnoblars, though it could create some extra small Clanrat units for the Blood & Glory scenario. Warlord Wizarding Hat Lvl2 Random Lore is quite usable vs. Ogres, however it uses up Lord points. 1. Fire (good for panic & bi pass Trollguts Regen) 2. Beasts (good for +1 Str & T buff) 3. Metal (good for panic, bi pass regen & vs. Mournfangs) 4. Light (good for panic & bi pass regen) 5. Life (gives regen & heals characters) 6. Heavens (nice buffs and range damage spells) 7. Shadow (nice debuff for opponents unit, Mind Razor if you get lucky) 8. Death (snipe spells for Ogre characters) see link for more details http://s6.zetaboards.com/The_UnderEmpire/topic/8802571/1/#new If you manage to get Purple Sun then Skitterleap your Wizarding Warlord into the Ogre flank, and send the Purple Sun through the Ogre lines for the win. Which Troops to take? Core Slaves are pretty handy for bogging the Ogres in combat so blocks of 50 are one way to go, or add shields if you want them to stick for longer. The Clanrats with full command in blocks of 30+ with weapons teams to do the damage are also useful. Storm-vermin will wound Ogres on 4+ compared to the 5+ of most core rats. Add in the Razor Banner to negate any armour saves the Ogres have. Rat darts can also be cheap and handy for dealing with Sabretusks and to some extent Gnoblars. Weapons Teams 1. The Warpfire thrower is very good vs. the main Ogre units at strength 5 and doing D3 wounds these chew through Ogres. You will get quite a few under the flame template and it will also cause the all important panic test on the enemy ogres. 2. The Doom-flayer can work quite well with it's large number of attacks, impact hits and relatively good save and cost. Even though it is Initiative 3 it will still strike before most of the Ogres. 3. The PWM is not as effective vs. Ogres if using them fire at the Mourn-fang Cavalry to bypass their 2+ AS.. Specials Rat Ogres are good due to their causing Fear and will be striking first (I4) vs. most Ogre troops.. Strength 5 means wounding the Ogres on 3+ which is nice, watch out for the enemy Ogres Impact hits, try to get the charge off first with the Rat Ogres. Plague Censor Bearers PCB's with the Toughness Test will also work quite well, and striking at I3 before most Ogres these guys in small units will help make a mess of Ogres.. Good to use vs. Mournfangs if the PCB's get the charge. Gutter Runners with Sling & Poison upgrades are still useful harassing the Iron-blasters getting past their high Toughness 6. Locking these Cannon/chariots in close combat will reduce damage on the Skaven main battle line. Plague monks can be ok if using Bless with filth on them. Maybe use a Plague furnace or character with the Stubborn Crown to help them stay in combat for longer. Rare The best picks to use here are the WLC and Doomwheel. As both these weapons deal D6 damage which is deadly to the multi wound Ogres. WLC target priorities. Even with 2 cannons in a rat list there will be too many targets to deal with. 1. Mournfang Cavalry die fast to WLC's so easy points for our Skaven Warmachines. 2. Monsters (Note: the Stonehorn halves the wounds done by multi wound weapons) so target the Thundertusks first and use Magic on the Stonehorns. 3. Big Ogre blocks the highest threat first, especially expensive Maneater units 4. Leadbelchers once the Storm Banner wears off. 5. Ironblasters at least on turn 1 may be worth shooting at until gutter Runners finish them off. Hellpits can be shot by flaming Firebelly spells & breath weapons so maybe not the pick of the rare choices, also watch out for the Banner of Eternal Flame on a unit of Maneaters or Ironguts. The Hellpits also won't get their thunderstomps vs. monstrous infantry, monsters and monstrous cavalry. Skaven Tactics The new Ogre book has a few tricks that the old one didn't have, I will list them briefly. Commonly used Ogre troops are as follows. 2-3 Sabretusks, cheap re-directors 1-2 Ironblasters accurate cannons watch out Doomwheels, Warlords on Bonebreakers and Hellpits Firebellies Lore of Fire Mages with a breath weapon and 2+ WS vs. Flaming negates our Warpfire throwers Mournfang Cavalry these hit pretty hard with impact hits and can have a 2+ AS and a parry, we can pretty much deal with these the same way deal with Empire Demigryphs. Watch out for Lore of Death, Beasts and Heavens which the Ogres now have access to. This may modify our character placement. Popular among Ogre players is the Iron Gut Deathstar builds usually with characters. This can be avoided or bogged down with slaves while we deal with the chaff and other supporting units. Using our ranks and flanks will generally help us stay in combat for longer vs. the Ogre fighting blocks. Edited by King Rat, 17th November 2014 - 10:11 PM.
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8th Ed Win /Draw/ Loss Skaven 24/ 10/ 13 Runner up Club Championships 2014, 2012 2nd Place Blood on the Reich 2011, 3rd Place Devilcon 2011 | ||
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| Borgomos | 1st March 2012 - 11:02 AM Post #2 | |
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Warlord
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I don't know King Rat, this looks almost like the previous Ogre Book tactica with a few changes here and there. I have been playing them (With and against) more than any other army these days, and i think that the new book is an entirely new beast. Rat Ogres are horrible against them now. Double Ironblasters, Pistolier Maneaters w/poison, Mournfangs, Dragonbreath Banner(which makes them ASL; there goes the init4), Characters in Ogre units, New and improved Leadbelchers. Rat Ogres are only good against beating an average sized unit of Ogres/Ironguts with no characters in it, which will be cheaper than the Rat Ogres, so it's nothing to write home about. I like to roll Ruin Lore instead of Plague in this match-up, as we get Scorch(good since this army sometimes have mediocre LD) and Crack's Call. How can gutters be good against Ironblasters when they boast a decent Armor save, and enough combat punch that locking it in melee will end up getting gutters beaten ? Storm banner is pretty neat against them now, it will shut down Ironblaster and Maneater shooting. Agree on the rest. Doomwheel is just too good against them big bellies. Did i mention Rat Ogres are horrible against them ? I think it's worth mentioning again. |
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| King Rat | 2nd March 2012 - 05:34 PM Post #3 | |
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Grey Seer
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I have to disagree with your analysis of the Rat Ogres.and their effectiveness vs. Ogre Kingdoms armies 1. Mournfangs fighting Rat Ogres will be eaten alive by the shear number of Strength 5 attacks at Initiative 4. A unit of 6 Rat Ogres with Champ throw out 22 attacks (hitting on 3's & wounding on 3's) plus the pack masters. (This should kill 2 Mournfangs outright on average dice, even with their parry saves). Use rat darts to try and prevent the Mournfangs getting the charge (Impact Hits). 2. The Dragonhide Banner (breath weapon) will only cause ASL on the second round of combat as the Rat Ogres will have struck before the Breath weapon round 1. 3. Ironguts and Maneaters will not get any save vs. Rat Ogres, and Ogres (Bulls) will only get their parry save if fighting to their front. 4. The Ogre Kingdoms shooting will be neutralized by the Storm Banner turns 1 and maybe 2. This will give time for the Gutter Runners to get into combat with the Iron-blasters. 5. Gorgers, Giants, Sabretusks, Scraplaunchers will also be destroyed by Rat Ogres. Important Notes 1. Leadbelchers can cause problems for the Rat Ogres, however a combination of careful deployment and the use of the Storm Banner & Howling Warpgale should help reduce the Leadbelchers effectiveness. 2. Be careful of the Ogre Impact hits, re-direct to allow the Rat Ogres to get the charge. The Gutter Runners vs. Ironblaster is an interesting match up. I run my gutter runners in units of 6 with poison & slings. The Gutter Runners should be able to charge the IB (hopefully in the flank) but will likely only inflict 1 or 2 wounds. So the combat will be a bit dodgey, but should prevent the IB shooting for a turn or 2. Maybe if a WLC can weaken the IB before the Gutter Runners engage it? The second alternative is just keep shooting the IB's with multiple gutter Runner units. Edited by King Rat, 2nd March 2012 - 08:56 PM.
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8th Ed Win /Draw/ Loss Skaven 24/ 10/ 13 Runner up Club Championships 2014, 2012 2nd Place Blood on the Reich 2011, 3rd Place Devilcon 2011 | ||
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| Mathusala0 | 2nd March 2012 - 06:53 PM Post #4 | |
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The Evil Underlord
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Rat ogres would get flattened by impact hits alone, and strength 5 diesnt do much good against 2+ armor. Hitting on fours, wounding on 3s, ignored on at least 5+ maybe 4+ No one takes any of the units mentioned on 5 other than sabers, which are basically rat darts, so pretty much any unit can deal with those. one thing that I see ALL the time is the giant snow mamoth thing (im at work) which reduces your inititive to always strike last, so any gains from the init 4 are almost always lost Personally im certain our best weapons are our doomwheels and cannons. Suprisingly warp fire throwers are also outstanding, the d2 multiple wounds hits and hurts a LOT of ogres. Edited by Mathusala0, 2nd March 2012 - 06:54 PM.
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| King Rat | 2nd March 2012 - 06:58 PM Post #5 | |
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Grey Seer
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Admittedly a frontal charge by Mournfangs is not what you want with Rat Ogres (better for the Rat Ogres to get the charge). Another option might be bog the Mournfangs with slaves then flank with the Rat Ogres. One thing to note is that 8 Rat Ogres with champion is about the same cost as 4 Mournfangs with Dragonhide Banner. If you go on the Ogre Stronghold one of the tactical tips for their Mournfangs is avoid Str5 or higher troops. So the Mournfangs will save half the Rat Ogre wounds plus the parry, this will still mess up the Mournfangs (reducing their save to 4+ & parry) with only 3 wounds each. I agree that not many Ogre players take the troops mentioned in point 5 but if they do they are easily disposed of. The Sabres however are in almost every Ogre list and the Rat Ogres may get a favorable overrun on poorly placed Sabretusks, admittedly this is very situational. The Rat Ogres however match up very well vs. Ogre (Bulls), IG's and Maneaters. The Rat Ogres will strike first and negate the Ogres, Maneaters and IG's armour saves. If they are running big monsters our WLC's and Doomwheels will have a field day!!!! I agree our best weapons are our WLC's, Doomwheels & WFT's. Though Censor Bearers and Doomflayers could be fun to use as well. Edited by King Rat, 2nd March 2012 - 08:04 PM.
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8th Ed Win /Draw/ Loss Skaven 24/ 10/ 13 Runner up Club Championships 2014, 2012 2nd Place Blood on the Reich 2011, 3rd Place Devilcon 2011 | ||
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| Borgomos | 5th March 2012 - 10:10 AM Post #6 | |
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Warlord
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The Problem is, best we can do is get 6-ish Rat Ogres with Skweel at best (I am not considering Bonebreaker Lord as efficient here, though others may disagree). Nobody will run Bulls or Ironguts without characters. They are not efficient. An Ogre character covers 1/3 of the units front, easily soaking a lot of attacks with it's superior stats and gear, and dishing out the hurt back. Even worse if they decide to add double character in 6-10 ironguts(common). though admittedly, it would be quite awkward for a skaven unit to vastly outperform an Ogre combat block, so i am assuming you plan to utilize the Rat Ogres in synergy with the rest of your toys. - Agree on Mathu about the Mournfangs. 4+ armor and +6 parry against S5 is rad. Mutate : I am liking the updates on the original post. Wizardling Warlord Go go go! Edited by Borgomos, 5th March 2012 - 10:11 AM.
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| King Rat | 5th March 2012 - 10:56 PM Post #7 | |
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Grey Seer
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The biggest advantage with our Rat Ogres is their high Iniative 4 & I5 for the champion. Striking first vs. Ogres will inflict the damage at Strength 5. The Ogre Kingdoms characters are tough but Hero level characters are easily killed by Rat Ogres. Kill the Firebellies before they can use their Breath weapons (Iniative 3), kill their BSB and Butchers. If a unit of Rat Ogres kills 2 characters then it has paid for itself. Running units of 8 Rat Ogres with Champion can inflict a lot of hurt on the Ogres. Using Skaven Magic to support them will also help. Wither, Death Frenzy and Bless with Filth will all support the Rat Ogres in combat. Edited by King Rat, 5th March 2012 - 11:03 PM.
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8th Ed Win /Draw/ Loss Skaven 24/ 10/ 13 Runner up Club Championships 2014, 2012 2nd Place Blood on the Reich 2011, 3rd Place Devilcon 2011 | ||
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| Brad's_Fangs | 11th August 2012 - 04:49 PM Post #8 | |
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I played my Skaven against my buddy's Ogre Kingdom army last night, and got absolutely thrashed. This is partly because I fielded a very poor army choice, but also because of his Thundertusk, which has the always Strikes Last rule. Any suggestions on how to deal with that? That caused me to lose some vital close combats. One thing I could think of is popping up behind it with a unit of Night Runners, A Warpgrinder, and a Deathmaster Snikch. Admittedly, only Snikch would be able to attack first, but he does have Weeping Blades, which are pretty nasty. | |
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| SkavenDan | 11th August 2012 - 05:16 PM Post #9 | |
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Doomwheel Fanatic
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Generally the Doom Wheel is your best defence against such a thing. Just remember it's not great in combat so zap it first and shave a few wounds of before trying to charge it. |
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| Nurglitch IX | 13th August 2012 - 08:23 PM Post #10 | |
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Avatar by count zero
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I think you may have that backwards... If it has "Always strikes last" then everything goes before it does. Best way to deal with Ogres is Cannons and Spells. take advantage of our Multi-wound attacks and our Init test spells. |
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| Brad's_Fangs | 19th August 2012 - 07:34 PM Post #11 | |
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When I say Always Strikes Last, I mean that it's something the Thundertusk does to enemy units. It's a special ability called Numbing Chill, or something like that. | |
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| SkavenDan | 19th August 2012 - 10:01 PM Post #12 | |
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Doomwheel Fanatic
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Yes it has the Numbing which gives its enemies in base contact always strikes last. Cannon or doom wheel it. | |
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| King Rat | 26th October 2014 - 11:09 PM Post #13 | |
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Grey Seer
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vs. the Ogre big Monsters try to bog them with Slaves, then poison shooting from Gutter Runners can also be good. | |
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8th Ed Win /Draw/ Loss Skaven 24/ 10/ 13 Runner up Club Championships 2014, 2012 2nd Place Blood on the Reich 2011, 3rd Place Devilcon 2011 | ||
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| Njaaa | 28th October 2014 - 10:26 AM Post #14 | |
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Chieftain
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The Thunder Tusk don't give ASL to units in base contact, only to enemy models within 6".... Remember. So it could be that only half of the Storm Vermin are affected in the CC. Only the Icecold HE birdie phoenix give the ASL special rule to units in base contact. |
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