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| Tweet Topic Started: 18th February 2012 - 07:57 PM (486 Views) | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Flem | 18th February 2012 - 07:57 PM Post #1 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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A blood curling cough a day, keeps the assassins away
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Since i never posted a list here before, and i'm actually feeling some shame for this, i'm posting the last tournament list i used (which ended in 3 wins and was around the end of November). Lords: Seer: -dispell Scroll -Foul pendant Heroes Chieftain: -Shield -BSB -Storm banner Plague priest: -Flail -Furnace -iron curse icon Core: 30 clanrats: -Shields -Muse -Banner -Mortar 20 clanrats: -Mortar 1 giant rat dart 38 slaves -Muse 38 slaves -Muse Special: 5 gutter runenrs: -Slings -Poison 27 plague monks: -full command -Plague banner Rare: 1Cannon 1Cannon 1 hellpit Edited by Flem, 28th February 2012 - 01:39 PM.
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| Mathusala0 | 18th February 2012 - 11:08 PM Post #2 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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The Evil Underlord
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Lords: Seer: -Scroll -Foul pendant What kind of scroll We have at least 4 scrolls that it could possibly be. all perfectly viable. my assumption is that it is in fact a dispell scroll but you never know with these things. written in all sorts of odd languages from the old world.Heroes Chieftain: -Shield -BSB -Storm banner pretty solid. with the 2 cannons its kinda iffy but hey I use it so I can't complain. Plague priest: -Flail -Furnace -iron curse icon Also very standard. keeps the plague monks hitting hard and strong for the least consumption of points (which is my big problem with the furnace) Core: 30 clanrats: -Shields -Muse -Banner -Mortar A tarpit unit that can fight in a pinch. always handy. + mortar and banner always useful (for ranged damage and blood and glory) 20 clanrats: -Mortar even if this is the bunker I'd still give them full command (shields optional) the champion can chump challenge, the banner is for blood and glory and the swift reform from the musician is always very handy, 1 giant rat dart needless to say how useful these are 38 slaves -Muse 38 slaves -Muse both fine. size really depends on your areas meta game. Special: 5 gutter runenrs: -Slings -Poison as above, always a good choice. though id go with 6 (just easier on odds calculation) 27 plague monks: -full command -Plague banner will beat down almost any unit in the game for a single turn, especially with the furnace) Rare: 1Cannon 1Cannon 1 hellpit good choice of rares. |
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| Flem | 19th February 2012 - 09:25 AM Post #3 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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A blood curling cough a day, keeps the assassins away
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It's a dispell scroll, my bad :P. I also found a small fault in my list, i have 2 rat darts and not one. For blood and glory i actually think 5 is a solid start in 2K, remember that us Skaven can create more banners through the 13th spell even if the original unit didn't have one. I actually use my 30 men as a Bunker and my 20 as a screen. With 2 mortars that i could sacrifice if the need was there and the 20 blocking the bunker (even after the rat darts and slaves) the bunker has proven solid enough in my meta. I agree that it's a pretty average list, which is actually one of the most important reasons i decided to post it. For many players seeking out a list, this one could provide a good basis to start from. Flem, |
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| Tanglewood | 25th February 2012 - 06:22 PM Post #4 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Warlord
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When I started I ran a list similar to this and this was what I learnt from it Individually, the choices are good but sum isn't greater than component in this case. Storm banner works well with furnace but bad with 2 mortars, 2 WLCs and gutters. By turn 2/3 units are in combat so mortars and WLCs lose target/effectiveness. If you activate storm banner on opponent's turn 2, you have 50% chance of reducing effectiveness of 310 points worth of stuff by half. Our warmachines are temperamental to start off with, making the odd smaller is counter intuitive I found. I stopped using storm banner and never looked back. If I want to create target saturation with furnace, abom, bell & dw in one list, I will definitely be using storm banner, just not with a double WLC, double mortart. My WLCs hit rate is pretty poor for me (although when they hit, they make up for all those misses and misfires) Not sure whats the point of the 20 CR speedbump. If it's just speed bumping, slaves are better as they don't create panic. If it's for the mortar, 10 SV is cheaper. PM unit is too small. I got away with it most of the times but against anyone slightly lucky or heavier artillery, the furnace gets halted very very fast. I try minimise all my risks and play min 30 with furnace/40 without. CR bunker - meh Seer - Wardsave. Tricky to give up but if you're willing to sweat a little more playing your ass off vs death magic list, then you can save 30 points by dropping the ward save. When my GS die, I don't think having a wardsave ever would have made any difference (dweller, suck into ward, run down, etc) 5 is definitely nice level of fortitude for BG although I played with 4 for a while and usually do end up with a 5th. It all become about protecting the GS, even if you have to sacrifice the BSB. Edited by Tanglewood, 25th February 2012 - 06:23 PM.
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| Flem | 27th February 2012 - 10:34 AM Post #5 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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A blood curling cough a day, keeps the assassins away
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Individually, the choices are good but sum isn't greater than component in this case. Storm banner works well with furnace but bad with 2 mortars, 2 WLCs and gutters. By turn 2/3 units are in combat so mortars and WLCs lose target/effectiveness. If you activate storm banner on opponent's turn 2, you have 50% chance of reducing effectiveness of 310 points worth of stuff by half. Our warmachines are temperamental to start off with, making the odd smaller is counter intuitive I found. I stopped using storm banner and never looked back. If I want to create target saturation with furnace, abom, bell & dw in one list, I will definitely be using storm banner, just not with a double WLC, double mortart. My WLCs hit rate is pretty poor for me (although when they hit, they make up for all those misses and misfires) I agree that in some cases the Stormbanner can be a poisenous gift, but in most cases i find that it actually does pay off more then it costs you in the end. Skaven have a strong ranged damage output with both magic and shooting. Even if our shooring gets crippled spells like plague and the 13th can prove enough to weaken a unit that extra bit before you enter combat with them. But the stormbanner always is iffy, you never know when it will end. If you roll badly it might even last the full 12 turns of a battle. Not sure whats the point of the 20 CR speedbump. If it's just speed bumping, slaves are better as they don't create panic. If it's for the mortar, 10 SV is cheaper. Yes 10 SV are cheaper, but at least the clanrats have a stronger chance of being steadfast. Even if it's only a unit of 20 models. And that , at least IMO, is 10 points well spend PM unit is too small. I got away with it most of the times but against anyone slightly lucky or heavier artillery, the furnace gets halted very very fast. I try minimise all my risks and play min 30 with furnace/40 without. In my meta this actually proves sufficient. If the monks and furnace break an expensive enough unit and perhaps even overrun in a different unit they could make up for their points. Agreed though that those 2 extra to push them to 30 might be a good investment of 14 points CR bunker - meh ??? As far as i see it this is a standerd bunker for a Skaven army. Seer - Wardsave. Tricky to give up but if you're willing to sweat a little more playing your ass off vs death magic list, then you can save 30 points by dropping the ward save. When my GS die, I don't think having a wardsave ever would have made any difference (dweller, suck into ward, run down, etc) A ward safe is worth it's points. It keeps those pesky chav units from charging and killing your seer (harpies or furies come to mind). 5 is definitely nice level of fortitude for BG although I played with 4 for a while and usually do end up with a 5th. It all become about protecting the GS, even if you have to sacrifice the BSB I agree sacrificing the BSB is a small price to pay to keep your seer safe in the Blood or Glory scenario. Actually i'd rather have Ld 10 then re-roll able Ld 8 in most battles... Flem, |
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| Tanglewood | 1st March 2012 - 07:51 PM Post #6 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Warlord
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You're playing on 2 big random variables and adding a 3rd. The problem I find is that it leads to more games where you can't control the battle and lose to dice because of too many randoms. Roll good shooting for a turn, win game. Roll badly, lose game. Points invested in bodies for ranks and combat res and steadfast on the other hand are always there. They have very little exposure to the effect of randomness. It's harder to win than just rolling dice and hitting that perfect WLC shot but you win because of your tactical acumen, not because of your dice roll. Beside, if you're good enough to pull it off once, there's a good chance you can repeat it (it's a skill). Can't be said with rolling the dice well. For tournament purposes, you need something that you can repeat games after games else you'll never get that good podium finishes as your luck will even out and you'll just lose some games w/o even playing when all your artilleries blow up or your storm banner never ended, etc.
The problem is that 10 SV will reliably die/flee after the 1st phase of combat for you to counter charge in your turn. 20 models will last 2 phases generally against something elite so he'll reform after the combat in your phase and charge something you really don't want him to when his turn starts. Shooting a template at 20 clan rats is easier than shooting 10 SV. Shooting templates at 10 SV just isn't worth it therefore so they're less likely to be mortar fodder.
With bigger units, even if the furnace is shot off, you still have a credible threat that you can use. i also play high elves a lot so w/o the numbers, i get very few returning attack so i always need bigger PM unit.
This is just me. Standard here doesn't mean most effective. Just mean easiest to play. I think they're a big waste of points. Go slave bunker or no bunker at all.
Furies 1A, WS3, Str 4. Max 3 in contact. 3 attacks at GS, 1.5 hits, 0.75 wounds Harpies 2A, WS3, Str 3 Max 3 in contact. 6 attacks at GS, 3 hits, 1 wound Chieftain (BSB) 3A, 3+ to hit, 1 wound caused on harpy/fury so draw on combat res. Res +3 for rank, +1 for BSB, Skaven win res by 3 (assuming fury/harpy charge). Fury Ld -1, Harpy Ld 3. Furies destroyed/harpies fleeing. Thanks for the points. I didn't even factor the 9 attacks by the unit and this is the worse case scenario for skaven vs fury/harpy (3 in base - most opponent will put 2 or you can even force opponent to only have 1 max in touch with seer). A good opponent will throw them elsewhere as redirectors. They shouldn't even be able to do this in the first place through good positioning but even if they did, it's np. If you really want, carry a skalm as thats helpful vs miscasts and cheaper. Against fury/harpies, slaves hit just as well as CR for 1/2 the point cost.
I saw a thread on UE somewhere that show Ld 8 reroll is actually better than Ld 10.... but in BG, only the fortitude matters! Edited by Tanglewood, 1st March 2012 - 07:58 PM.
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| Flem | 2nd March 2012 - 12:22 PM Post #7 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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A blood curling cough a day, keeps the assassins away
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I'm actually (according to T3 that is) one of the best scorring tournament players in both Belgium and Holland, so it seems to be working just fine. I can see your point about trying to keep randomness to a minimum, but if that really is your goal then don't play skaven. We thrive in randomness and it adds to the gaming experience you get from playing them. I don't think i'm wrong if i'd say about at least 60% of the people on this forum agree that randomness is one of the great factors that drew them to Skaven in the first place.I agree that with the stormbanner and 2 cannons + 2 mortars i'm taking an extra randomness factor in acount. But a real tournament player is about taking the risk when needed and calculating what the possible outcomes could be and see if the risk is worthwhile to begin with. If its not fine don't pop your storm banner and use your own shooting to it's full potential.
That's a personal taste, but your 10 stormvermin will get wiped faster then the 20 clanrats, keeping it that no lucky overrun would get your seer in combat. You forget you actually have a turn with the clanrats to move your bunker or seer + BSB our thow something else in the way.
You might feel that way but a clanrat bunker has a few perks like armour, a banner (for frotitude) and the possibility to take a weapon team. Even more fluff wise why would a seer lower himself to the point where he'd use slaves as bodyguards? For the older players around, see that my army still is keeping the mainstay rule up Actually a smart player would charge 2 units , would place one in maximum contact with the seer. You also forgot that if the unit goes 3 wide, and 2 deep harpies would get 8 attacks and furies would get 5 attacks. So that's more then you acounted for. Flem, |
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| Mathusala0 | 2nd March 2012 - 03:50 PM Post #8 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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The Evil Underlord
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aka, no gutz no glory!
Oh that's awesome, first player besides me I've seen that occur. as for harpies, I've seen most dark elves run them 3 wide and then with 2 in back, at the same time I've also run a bell so they got a LOT more attacks on my grey sear. he survived, but it was a scary moment |
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| Flem | 2nd March 2012 - 05:33 PM Post #9 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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A blood curling cough a day, keeps the assassins away
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exactly :-)
Haha guess great and evil minds do think alike from time to time |
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| Nurglitch IX | 2nd March 2012 - 06:29 PM Post #10 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Avatar by count zero
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That was mine. TO clairify - when you've got SiN at +3 a Re-rollable 8 is just under 1% better than a Straight 10. As you start to loose your SiN, that extra +2 on the roll is worth more than a second attempt at a lousy score.
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| Tanglewood | 5th March 2012 - 02:11 AM Post #11 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Warlord
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Randomness is certainly a characteristic of skaven that draw many people to the race. However, it is not a characteristic that is desirable when you talk of a tournament list. I don't know what tournament scenes are like in B&H but non-optimised list don't really do well here in the Uk where there are 1-2 tournaments every weekend for practicing. The time when it's worth popping the storm banner (beside to stop flying), is when you face a gunline with bigger output than your own, which with 2 WLC + 2 Mortars, isn't going to be very many so for most games, you've wasted 50 points + lose opportunity to have some useful magical banner. Real tournament players do take risk when needed and I'm pointing out that it isn't needed here for reasons stated above and previously but most of all because we have a better alternative for stopping warmachines in the gutter runners. There are already plenty of randomness in 8th that you have to factor into your strategy.
Good players will tell you that there is absolutely no luck in over runs. You know exactly which direction the unit will go (or reform) and it will be between 2-12". I count on the fact that I know where the over run will be to set up flank charges/charges in my turn. With 10 sv, they will break/wiped out first turn, almost guaranteed so you will know exactly where your enemy unit will be in your turn. With 20 cr, they might actualy hold if the opponent fluff his attacks or roll insane courage, so they're likely to break in the first round of combat or the second. This is an extra piece of randomness that you cannot calculate and led to the "luck" factor. A good player doesn't come top because he consistently beat you through lucky dice rolls. It's because he's taken as much luck out of his list (except where the risk is very minimal but the payoff is massive like the doom rocket/HPA/etc) then practice with it and understand what he can and can't do with his tools. As for slave bunker, like I said, this is just my preference. My list are either fully optimised or real fluffy, depending who/what I'm playing that week.
Something is seriously wrong if you've opened yourself up to a charge by 2 fury/harpy units. Angle your bunker, you are almost always guaranteed to be able to take one from front and one from flank (opposite to the GS). If you played it right, it's could be almost impossible to have more than 1 harpy in base contact (e.g. reforming to 6 wide, following behind another unit, etc). There are a lot of ways to stop getting charged by harpies/furies/eagles. 5 x Harpies/Furies in 2 ranks will get even less attacks on the GS that is in a unit that is 5 wide. With meagre 3 attacks, harpies and furies will score an average of 0.5 wounds. You're putting the GS / BSB in the corners right? Bell is a whole different kettle of fish. Edited by Tanglewood, 5th March 2012 - 02:40 AM.
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We have at least 4 scrolls that it could possibly be. all perfectly viable. my assumption is that it is in fact a dispell scroll but you never know with these things. written in all sorts of odd languages from the old world.
