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Giant Rat Darts; Can someone explain the tactic?
Topic Started: 23rd January 2012 - 12:58 AM (16,785 Views)
Ratatak Gristlegouger
Stormvermin
Is the general idea to have one packmaster, 6 rats (2 wide, 3 deep) and use them to rush out and hold up enemy chargers, thus allowing you to flank?

Is this what is meant as "speed bumps?"

Now, I assume timing is key as those rats will probably break after the first round of combat, no? So calculate it so they can be a speed bump on the same turn that you can flank? Or is it to just buy you one more round of having an enemy not in your face, allowing u to manuever, shoot, etc?
Edited by Ratatak Gristlegouger, 23rd January 2012 - 01:00 AM.
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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

rat darts are used to

1: redirect
2: hunt skirmishers
3: hunt warmachines
4: have a combat lined up for overrunning units.
5: deployment stallers

the main reasons (redirect and deployment stall) are fairly easy to use.

heres how to.


example

Posted Image

in this example, the enemy is close enough that next turn he will charge, to prevent this you run in front of your unit with the rat dart at a 45% angel to the enemy unit. forcing them to charge the rats or waste time trying to get around them (or wait and shoot them)

Posted Image

The enemy most likely will charge, your going to lose time no mater how you look at it so you might as well get the 23 points out of it.

Posted Image

Note that should the enemy overuns, (which if frenzied he must) he is not going to hit your unit, because overrunn happens in a straight line.

even if the unit is not frenzied, he must either overrun or choose to reform, so while he doesn't lose 2 or 3 turns like a frenzy unit would (1 turn overrunning the wrong way, 1 to turn around, 1 to charge again) he does waste a single turn.
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Ratatak Gristlegouger
Stormvermin
thank you!
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Rein bringer of the cheese
Warlord
Ok but the enemy will just position his unit like this:

Posted Image

Then when the unit overruns it will hit the green unit below and therefore can make a charge using the charge rules.
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CapAmr05
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As we discussed the last time Math posted this diagram, if you position the Dart correctly, no manner of (re)positioning on the charge will allow the enemy to do that.

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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

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by turning the dart at a higher angle we force a different overrun angle, so long as the center of the unit your redirecting remains in the forward arc of the rat dart you can turn almost completely parallel to the opponent.
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Ratatak Gristlegouger
Stormvermin
You sneaaaky rat. Love this tactic! I'm going to bring 2 darts and try it out next game!
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lockwood
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Chieftain
careful we are not the only ones that use this trick be on the look out for it
toys go boom kill all man-thing, got to find more man-thing so toys can go boom again '

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Hotdogg
Clanrat
I occasionally run 4 darts and they rarely do much. When i run 2 or 3 they do quite a bit, and when i run 1 it saves the game.

Are there some other methods you could create diagrams for?

Using them to charge fleeing units is great, get 'em off the board!
Magic annihilates them, and so does most solid shooting. And when they flee (especially since it is fleeing center from center) it can cause great havoc on other darts and such units.
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
For optimal redirection results, you will want to get charged in the flank. Simply put the rat dart 1 inch away from the front of the enemy (of course not from its center, but from one of its sides) and you will receive a flank charge, resulting in a 90 redirection.

Should look somewhat like that:


EEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEE

R
R
R

More than half of Es front rank are in the flank zone of R.
E cannot move because any kind of wheeling would be against the 1-inch rule.
The only possible movement of E is a charge against Rs flank.
R accepts the charge and E allignes to Rs flank, resulting in a 90 redirection.
R is destroyed and E can now overrun into a land where no men ever traveled befor.
E reformes and faces any direction it wants.

Possible Disadvanatges:
Depending on the unit sizes (esp. the front ranks) this kind of redirection can sometimes result in the enemy moving farther than if you would be charged into the front.
If there is another unit (C) in the back of R, R must be placed carefuly as otherwise E may be perhaps able to charge C, as during charges there is no 1-inch-rule.


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Nurglitch IX
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Avatar by count zero
Vermin Lord
Paricidas
24th January 2012 - 06:58 PM
For optimal redirection results, you will want to get charged in the flank. Simply put the rat dart 1 inch away from the front of the enemy (of course not from its center, but from one of its sides) and you will receive a flank charge, resulting in a 90 redirection.

Should look somewhat like that:


EEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEE

R
R
R
...

ok, in asking for clarification, I got it

The Unit R is 1 rank wide by 3 files deep.

Mutate: removing uneeded quote stuff.
Edited by Nurglitch IX, 24th January 2012 - 07:27 PM.
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
Well, there is no fix amount of how wide or deep a redirector must be. All you have to do is to position him in a way that the enemy unit can not simply march or charge by.
If the redirector has less than 50% of the enemy unit in its front arc, than the charge of the enemy unit will hit the redirectors flank.

Generally redirectors are extremly powerfull units, not because of their combat power but becuase they can easily dominate an enemies movement phase ( he charged and killed a 23 points redirector and can a run in a direction he does not want or b. just moves about an inch in his movement phase). It is especially powerfull against frenzied units as they will not be able to reform after CC (and just stand still) but must overrun at all costs, which can put them into very very bad positions on the battlefield. IMPORTANT: Please notice that rat darts who do not have the haqndler in the first rank can never be overrun, as it is impossible to kill the unit in a single turn (The handler cannot be attacked and wounds do not carry over onto him as he has an other troop type than the rats).

I simply took 3 "Rs" because redirectors are normaly very small as they will a. give points to the enemy (you must accept the charge if you want the enemy to allign on your redirectors front/flank) and b. they need to be fast and flexible, so they can dance around between the main combat blocks. Ufortunatly giant rats are not that usefull as redirectors as they do not have musicians and have a terrible low moral (i.e. if the enemy wants to remove them, he does not have to shoot them all but just cause a panic test - if general and BB are out of reach). Warlocks are cheaper, more flexible and they are almost immune to shooting due to LoS! Giant rats have the advantage that they have much more wounds and can stall deployment.

In my experience the movement of redirectors can very easily decide games and they should under no circumstances be neglected due to their low points/damage output.
Skaven are perhaps one of the few armies that do not need redirectors as badly, as every honk&donk has steadfast, but if you consider that a single warlock that jumps out of your grey seers bunker will buy the bunker two rounds of combat, these units can easily turn a game.

A more offensive way to use Giant rats would be to use them during a charge. This only makes sense in this situation: You have a nice strong combat unit like a HPA or some monks who are about to charge a combat they will surely win. Overrun or pursuit will let them run into the next unit that is just standing behind. Charge the first unit with your hammer and the second unit (where the hammer will land after the overrun/pursuit move) with your giant rat dart. First resolve the charge of the hammer, let it overrun/pursuit into the second combat with the rats and resolve that combat, so your hammer unit gets to attack two times. This is a devastating move with plague monks, as they will get rerolls from plague banner for both combats. God forbid you took a furnace, as you will get 2 times impact hits, 2 times +2 strengh for the flail of the plague priest, 2 times the gas tests and 2 times the str 5 attacks from the furnace itself.
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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

Quote:
 
Are there some other methods you could create diagrams for?


NO! I stubbornly refuse! not after someone showed that it wasnt perfect!

....

Ok fine

Posted Image

this is the way to set it up so a hammer unit can get 2 or more rounds of combat a turn. the rat dart (yellow), charges an enemy unit (red) while a hammer unit (the green furnace) charges a parallel enemy to the other (maroon)

Posted Image

Im not sure if there is a rule that prevents this happening more than once a turn (they may well be) and also it doesnt have to be parallel per say, just make it so your overrun will hit the second enemy unit.

I'll do the double flee trick in a sec,

NOTE: all these tricks are universal, they can be preformed by any units of any race, the reason rat darts are exceptionally effective at it is because they are cheep as hell compared to other race alternatives. they are also really fast and have a small profile.
Edited by Mathusala0, 24th January 2012 - 11:21 PM.
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
Quote:
 
Im not sure if there is a rule that prevents this happening more than once a turn (they may well be)


"If a pursuing unit is lucky enough to win a second fight in the same turn, it cannot overrun and automatically restrains pursuit (and can reform!)." (BRB, p. 58, "Pursuit into a new Enemy")
Edited by Paricidas, 25th January 2012 - 06:29 AM.
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Hotdogg
Clanrat
Mathusala0
24th January 2012 - 11:19 PM

NO! I stubbornly refuse! not after someone showed that it wasnt perfect!
....
Ok fine
Thanks for that!! hadnt seen that one yet. is the double flee similar to redirecting, yet u flee with two darts and they can no longer charge any other targets?

i have been deploying my darts in front of my army and they often get magic'd and shoot'd to death. would i be better off keeping them running along the flank of my units until enemiez are close enough to annoy? or are the darts better off taking some of the punishment so the rest of the army does not?
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