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First Army; Skaven
Topic Started: 12th December 2011 - 09:30 PM (183 Views)
Ratzilla
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Here is my first dab at a mock army list, any advice is welcome.

LORDS:
warlord

HERO'S:
warlock enginier X2
chieften BSB

CORE:
clan rats
skaven slaves X2
stormvermin

SPECIAL:
(plauge monks)

RARE:
hell pit abomination/warp lighting cannon

i will fill in the points later to get 2000p but i have a question, is there anything i can do to prevent the skaven slaves from "exploding", maby a magical item.

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Scarr, Reincarnated
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11th creator of the Skaven Achievements. Binder of IceAc.
What are the numbers. How many in each unit? I will really need that to rate it. Also what gear does your Characters have?

And I actually see Slaves exploding as a benefit. When they do they have probably done their job already.
The Pox on you, AND your kind!

Player of games, watcher of games, gamer of plays.


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Ratzilla
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i will get the numbers down as soon as possable, ok.
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Olorin the Ancient
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Without discussing the details of your list--which would be pointless, since you have no numbers there--I would like to point out that a "mock Skaven army" would, by definition, consist of something other than Skaven. (Think, for instance, of a mock turtle soup, which is similar to turtle soup, but made without any turtle in it.) If the list contains genuine Skaven, then it isn't mock.
- Olorin the Ancient
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Gazz't Rootgnasher
Clanrat
Olorin the Ancient
13th December 2011 - 06:24 PM
Without discussing the details of your list--which would be pointless, since you have no numbers there--I would like to point out that a "mock Skaven army" would, by definition, consist of something other than Skaven. (Think, for instance, of a mock turtle soup, which is similar to turtle soup, but made without any turtle in it.) If the list contains genuine Skaven, then it isn't mock.
My understanding of a mock army list in terms of Warhammer was to put together a points value for an army you didn't presently have the models for, in an attempt to get feedback and finalize what you wanted to put together, then purchase the models based on your intended list. That might be what this is about.
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Borgomos
Warlord
I think the correct term for that is "First draft" or something like that.

Regarding your list idea, I am one of those who believe that having both Stormvermin and Plague monks in a list makes our infantry cost too much. Both units need to be around 30-40 range to be effective at all. Both units also need support to be effective. Monks need Priest and/or Furnace, Stormvermin need Skavenbrew and a Warlord.

I also think not fielding a Grey Seer at 2000 points is criminal, but that is my opinion

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Ratzilla
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Changing the subject of "mock army" i have done a blue print army:
------------------------------------------------------------------
LORD:
warlord: 90p
enchanted shield (3+save roll): 5p
iron curse icon (6+ ward save,warmachines):5p
sword of might (+1 S):20p

120p
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HERO'S
warlock enginier:15p
level 2 wizard:85p
warp musket:15p
warp energie condenser:20p

warlock enginier:15p
level 2 wizard:85p
warp musket:15p
skaven brew:50p

chieften:45p
BSB:25p
shield:2p
magic standard (razor standard):45p

417p
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CORE

40 clanrats:160p
shields:20p
musician:4p
standard bearer:8p
poisoned wind motor:65p

20 clanrats:80p
shields:10p
musician:4p
standard bearer:8p
poisoned wind motor:65p

20 clanrats:80p
shields:10p
musician:4p
standard bearer:8p
poisoned wind motor:65p

40 skavenslaves:80p
slings:20p
musician:4p

40 skavenslaves:80p
slings:20p
musician:4p

19 stormvermin:133p
musician:5p
standard bearer:10p
poisoned wind motor:65p

1012p
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RARE

hell pit abomination: 235p
warpstone spikes: 15p

250p
-----------------------
TOTAL:1799p

this is just a basic plan but i cant get to my 2000p target, any help?
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Gazz't Rootgnasher
Clanrat
Just on a basic principle, Warpmuskets aren't exactly the most reliable or useful item on the list. The instant your unit has to move out of something's way, which it is likely to do very often, you can't use it anymore. For the same point value as both those muskets, you could get the Doomrocket, which is an incredible piece of work in a Skaven list. Nobody likes taking a hit from the thing.

Also, your clanrat units are a bit small. I imagine that you're probably fielding them for the attached teams, but that's a rather inefficient use of their points, especially if you're going to use all of them with shields. Rule of thumb is minimum of 30 clanrats, just so they can tie up a few units in combat and stand a decent chance of fighting back.

Again with the Stormvermin, those aren't something you want to field in such small numbers. I'd say take some of those extra points, drop them into the Clanrats and Stormvermin, and take a level off of one of those engineers. The one with the condenser would be just fine running level 1 since he's guaranteed to get Warp Lightning. Most armies want a dispel scroll, but you don't necessarily have to run with that, just that it's very helpful.

Also, you're exceeding your points on that one engineer. He can take a combined total of 50 points from the magic items and scavenge-pile, so skavenbrew takes up all the points he can use. Consider running a naked engineer with the brew (15 + 50 = 65) since once the brew is applied he's not all that useful anymore, and maybe use that to pump up the Stormvermin.

The Razor Standard on the Chieftain isn't really a great choice, I can guarantee people will tell you to put that one with the Stormvermin and give the Chieftain something else. You don't want that guy getting into combat frequently, which is the only case that the Razor Standard helps him with. Most recommendations will either be the Banner of Discipline or our particular favorite Stormbanner. With as much non BS shooting you will have on the table, I'd highly recommend the Stormbanner.

On top of that, at least one, maybe two if you can fit it, Warp Lightning Cannons provide great support to your HPA and other units, even with the Stormbanner active, so definitely consider using them to hammer some of the larger enemy units from far away.

Last thing I'll put up here, since I know a few people will do a part by part analysis and I'm only really providing some suggestions, Gutter Runners. They are essential for messing up enemy gunlines and breaking apart war machines early into the game, which this list will absolutely hate without them. Given the numbers of your units, a few shots from some cannons might have your army running for the table edge very quickly. You've got some extra points to play with, drop some extra bodies on the table.
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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

Just on a basic principle, Warpmuskets aren't exactly the most reliable or useful item on the list. The instant your unit has to move out of something's way, which it is likely to do very often, you can't use it anymore. For the same point value as both those muskets, you could get the Doomrocket, which is an incredible piece of work in a Skaven list. Nobody likes taking a hit from the thing.

agreed

Also, your clanrat units are a bit small. I imagine that you're probably fielding them for the attached teams, but that's a rather inefficient use of their points, especially if you're going to use all of them with shields. Rule of thumb is minimum of 30 clanrats, just so they can tie up a few units in combat and stand a decent chance of fighting back.

They are indeed small, 30 is a good minimum number, I myself prefer 50s.

Again with the Stormvermin, those aren't something you want to field in such small numbers. I'd say take some of those extra points, drop them into the Clanrats and Stormvermin, and take a level off of one of those engineers. The one with the condenser would be just fine running level 1 since he's guaranteed to get Warp Lightning. Most armies want a dispel scroll, but you don't necessarily have to run with that, just that it's very helpful.

Agreed

Also, you're exceeding your points on that one engineer. He can take a combined total of 50 points from the magic items and scavenge-pile, so skavenbrew takes up all the points he can use. Consider running a naked engineer with the brew (15 + 50 = 65) since once the brew is applied he's not all that useful anymore, and maybe use that to pump up the Stormvermin.

Actually he is not ;) warlocks may take a warpmusket in their own profile, separate from the scavenge pile, however, warpmuskets are pretty bad, so you'll want to drop it anyways.

The Razor Standard on the Chieftain isn't really a great choice, I can guarantee people will tell you to put that one with the Stormvermin and give the Chieftain something else. You don't want that guy getting into combat frequently, which is the only case that the Razor Standard helps him with. Most recommendations will either be the Banner of Discipline or our particular favorite Stormbanner. With as much non BS shooting you will have on the table, I'd highly recommend the Stormbanner.

I guarantee you gazz is right! youll want your bsb to stay out of combat so that he doesnt get focused on. the razor standard is counter productive to this end.

On top of that, at least one, maybe two if you can fit it, Warp Lightning Cannons provide great support to your HPA and other units, even with the Stormbanner active, so definitely consider using them to hammer some of the larger enemy units from far away.

agreed

Last thing I'll put up here, since I know a few people will do a part by part analysis and I'm only really providing some suggestions, Gutter Runners. They are essential for messing up enemy gunlines and breaking apart war machines early into the game, which this list will absolutely hate without them. Given the numbers of your units, a few shots from some cannons might have your army running for the table edge very quickly. You've got some extra points to play with, drop some extra bodies on the table.

again agreed

Gazz has some excellent points here. Theres actually not much for me to add. other than I fully support all his proposed innovations
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The Skaven Guide to competitive list building (8th Edition)
The Skaven Castle Formation
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Gazz't Rootgnasher
Clanrat
Heh, whoops, so much time ignoring the scavenge-pile on Warlocks will do that to a guy I suppose. And for the record, I find it rather flattering you don't have anything else to add onto what I said.
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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

Changing the subject of "mock army" i have done a blue print army:
------------------------------------------------------------------
LORD:
warlord: 120p
enchanted shield
iron curse icon
sword of might

Do Not Post Individual Item or Model Points Costs!!! and Do NOT post their ABILITIES!!!
As for the warlord, hes alright, personally id get him a war-litter and a 4+ ward save, sword of anti heros is indefinably better than sword of might. personally at this level Id drop him altogether and invest in a grey sear, You'll need a level 4 to defend against the magic heavy lists.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HERO'S
warlock engineer 135 points
level 2 wizard
warp musket
warp energie condenser

Drop the musket. drop to level 1, buy a doom rocket.

warlock engineer 165 points
level 2 wizard
warp musket
skaven brew

Drop both wizard levels, drop musket

chieften 117p
BSB
shield
magic standard (razor standard)

Get rid of the razor standard, get a storm banner.

417p
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CORE

40 clanrats 257p
shields:
musician
standard bearer
poisoned wind motor

fine

20 clanrats 167p
shields
musician
standard bearer
poisoned wind motor

to small of a unit, combine with the next unit

20 clanrats 167p
shields
musician
standard bearer
poisoned wind motor

as above

40 skavenslaves 102p
slings
musician

drop the slings, the mathhammer for slaves with slings as well as it practced just shows its a waste of an upgrade. 40 is a good number though. also, muscians are not X points they cost the same as a slave

40 skavenslaves 102p
slings
musician

as above

19 stormvermin: 203p
musician
standard bearer
poisoned wind motor

to small of a unit, get more model in here. also get them the razor standard but not on the BSB

1012p
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RARE

hell pit abomination 250p
warpstone spikes

good, but you'll want more than just him
-----------------------
TOTAL:1795p

Total models 185|200, not bad actually, could be a bit closer but not terrible.

this is just a basic plan but i cant get to my 2000p target, any help?

I highly recommend you check out the guide if your new to skaven (its linked in my sig) It gives a good rundown on list building and unitsas well as some rules of thumb to go by.

Quote:
 
Heh, whoops, so much time ignoring the scavenge-pile on Warlocks will do that to a guy I suppose. And for the record, I find it rather flattering you don't have anything else to add onto what I said.


Don't let the fact that I try to critique every list get in the way of posting your own opinions. I'm not here 24/7 anymore I can't get to all of them as fast as I used to. Plus I certainly don't have time to do a detailed explanation such as yours if I want to try and get all of the (hence my recent switch the past monthish to the "copy paste list, fill with yellowtext strategy) the downside is that even though I can go through part by part and analyze each unit separately, I often don't look over the list as a whole. so its good to get a second opinion.
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The Skaven Castle Formation
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Ratzilla
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Thanks to all, i suppose it is stupid putting the BSB with a razo standard, plus i fogot about the war litter.
however i think will use the core from this mock for the future, just more of it.

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