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Defeating Lizardmen; 8th Ed. Specific Tactica
Topic Started: 6th November 2011 - 06:06 PM (7,215 Views)
Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

This is me trying to take on the role of King Rat and finish the 8th edition tactics articles some of which will soon need to be updated anyways as new armybooks get released.

Lizardmen (aka lustria) Lizard men have 4 strong elements in their armies, The best mages in the game (Slann) decent selection of hard hitting troops and monsters (saurus, templeguard, and stegs) some nasty template shooting (salamanders) and some of the best skirmishers outside of our own gutter runners (chameleon skinks)

lizardmens weaknesses include some very low initiative. (one of the slowest armies in the game) expensive units, limited secondary wizards (heaven sucks) and they lack effective hammer units.

Which Troops to take?
Characters

grey sears are almost a must take for defense against the magic sure to come your way. the sear can also safely ride a bell against lizards.

Warlords bring much needed leadership and kitted out correctly can add quite a punch to our low S units. however he will most likely fall pale in comparison to the characters of the lizards.

Warlocks should be netted out with as many toys as you can grab, death globes, brass orbs and doomrockets are all excellent at killing lizzards, condenser can help net you more power dice and taking a dispell scroll caddy can help save from from the magic pain.

plague priests are tough buggers with some decent strength, the furnace they can bring with them is also an excellent machine against lizards.

Chieftains having your standard BSB is about the extent of chieftains, they dont quite pack the punch of a warlord.

Core

Slaves as always are a hands down choice. they can slow up saraus warriors (who suffer from a lack of attacks) for quite some time.

Clan Rats are going to be reduced to bunkering duty alone, as they will not stand up to saraus and their low strength makes them a poor match up. buy more slaves or invest in....

Storm vermin are actually alright against lizardmen, the fast initiative and strength 4 means they can go toe to toe with the saraus. building the unit (or possibly units) of stormvermin with things like skavenbrew or beefy warlords can be a pretty decent combat unit and is most certantly a "hammer" unit

Giant rat Darts are as always a recommended choice, however larger blocks are not as they suffer from the low strength issue.

Weapons Teams

Wind mortars still hold out as amazing, always wounding on 5_ and ignoring the saraus as of 4+ makes them great for lots of kills.

The warpfire thrower can plant a lot of saraus but it will have trouble evading the skink skirmishers sure to accompany them.

Rattling Guns can help clear out skinks

doomflayers are a possible option for clanrats who want to engage, the doomflayer grants them a decent amount of attacks at a high enough strength to mater.

Specials

PCB are actually a decent option against saruas, with a decent amount of strength 5 attacks that will actually hit first (the censers greatest weakness is init3, but when hitting init 2...) and as such they make a good support unit if not takin in a large enough group to be their own hammer unit. however you will need to break steadfast as cold blooded makes lizards far more difficult to break than other races.

Gutter Runners Are good at hunting the skinks, they can also potentially down a steg or some salamanders behind the lines.

Plague Monks while low on S like most skaven the absolute mountain of attacks these guys put out can make up for it (especially if fighting a withered unit) toughness 4 helps them survive the deluge of counter attacks.

Rat Ogres are actually pretty decent as well and can be considered a competitive hammer choice against lizards (hitting first with many strength 5 attacks)

Globadiers can be helpful but they tend to get shot out by skinks.

Jezzails can pick out stegs, but unfortunately thats about all they can do.

Rare

our rares are awesome as normal.

WLC's are good verses anything they shoot, you will have to cover them from skinks however.

Doomwheels are fantastic at removing skinks, salamanders, and stegs. however after that they have limited uses.

The Hellpits are amazing against saraus, with a rain of strength 6 attacks against the all infantry armies that lizards are (barring the rare sight of cold ones) they can single handedly demolish a saraus unit. hands down still the best hammer.

Plague catapults, while good with the large template, are only S2 whereas the cannon is S up to ten. good practice and experience will help you to decide which is more favorable.

Magical Banners
Storm banner can be a big asset against the skinks and salamanders.

Razor standard can give a unit of storm vermin or plague monks a huge edge against the 4+ armor.

Fire does you little to no good here (except maybe against a life taking slann which is common place)

plague banner is decent on monks as it always is.

underempire is not recomended do to the T4 of saraus.

Skaven Magic
plague magic losses some of its edge against T4, however its still simi effective and wither can help even the odds in a lot of fights. as will poison attacks.

ruin brings scorch, death frenzy, warpgale, cracks call, warp lightning, and skitterleap, probably the more optimal choice against lizards.
Edited by Mathusala0, 6th November 2011 - 06:07 PM.
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Borgomos
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Few things i will like to add:

- Stegodons, while devastating when used properly, are very weak against our Doomwheel/WLC. Quickly removing a Steg who carries an Engine of the Gods can quickly turn the fight to your favor.

- Even our Grey Seer is no match against the Slann's magic. You will have to think carefully about what to dispel and what to let through.

- Almost every Slann out there will have Cupped Hands + Becalming Cognition. That means Earthening Rod/Skalm on the Grey Seer is beneficial. You should also keep your distance from the Slann if you want to actually be able to cast anything.

- The Skins should be removed quickly with stuff like Scorch/warp lightning.

- Lizardmen players know that their Slann is crucial to their success. Don't think that a Lizardmen player will let you kill his toad easily. Temple Guard is one of the most durable infantry in the game, almost as good as Tzeentch Chaos Warriors. Hovewer, since we have the Dread 13, you can punish a LM player for not bringing enough Temple Guard.


Overall, Lizardmen are a solid , forgiving army. They are one of my more favored opponents to fight against, always a good challange.

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Razuli
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Mathusala saying something good about SV and PCBs!? now I've seen everything! :P

I have a few comments as well.

While the DW is decent against LM, poisoned blowdart skinks can take it out pretty easily. Just something that needs to be considered when fielding it.

I also wouldn't underestimate Heavens, its probally my favorite lore from the BRB's lores (really more from a fluff standpoint than competetive, but its more than usable). It is a whole lot more subtle and requires more foresight than other lores, but a meteor or 3 can still ruin your day.

Also PCCs and the Plague lore both get a whole lot better looking when you use them together.


On another note, I wonder where King Rat has gone, he used to be so active.
skavenmatt,Sep 11 2010
10:05 PM
Playing skaven to minimize randomness is like going to prom with your sister, you can do it if you really want, but in the end everyone will still laugh even if you do get lucky.


Clanlord Trask
18th April 2011 - 03:46 AM
I always take at least one Warpfire Thrower. You can't always rely on your opponent to do massive damage to your troops. Sometimes, you just have to do a job yourself.

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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

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Mathusala saying something good about SV and PCBs!? now I've seen everything! :P


Hey! while I may not think they are a good unit for an all comers list, plague censers fair exceptionally well vs certain armies (such as lizards, bretonnia, ogres, O&G, empire [to a degree]) its just the armies I dread facing are not among those XD.

And While I personally do not like stormvermin, by no means are they bad, NOTHING in the skaven book is bad, some stuff is simply better. (and i dont like plague monks either I just dont make such a big deal about it cause I know Ill lose that argument)

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On another note, I wonder where King Rat has gone, he used to be so active.


I do miss him, not only was he an active member but he was a dedicated member. I feel kinda bad trying to wrap these up in his stead but I do think we need to clean up these old ones because by January we are gonna see either wood elves, bretonnia, or vampires depending on what rumors you believe. (vampires comes from a rumer that they are cleaning up all the "out of system" magic phases, personally Im putting my bets on the kenigits and elves.)
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Naiilo
Clanrat
Since I play both armies Im going to pipe up and put my 2 cents in here.

The 3 big things that the LM army has going against it is an I of 1 (for most units, Hero and Lords are higher at about 3-4) and a move of 4 (skinks 6, and Cav 6), and finally a WS of 3 for most core units.

I disagree about LM not having a hard hitting unit. First off a 6x3 LM unit with spears has 18 s4 attacks on the charge and 24 s4 attacks normally. All of our Heroes can be given great weapons for 4 s7 attacks and they are relatively inexpensive. LM have plenty of Hammers and Anvils especially with cold blooded.

Skinks:
Most LM players will not field regular skinks, unless it is with Kroxxigors. Avoid these units if you can, the Krox have a high strength multiple attacks, and stomp and the unit has a "Unique" value is is immune to spell of the 13 and stomp. The skink skirmishers can be devastating, a unit of 10 skinks can pour 20 poisoned shots into a unit at 12" and these auto wound on 6's. With a WS of 2, T2 and no armor save, and Ld6 these units are easily broken *note watch out, these units are also used for re-directs*

Chameleon Skinks:
These buggers have a -2 to be shot at (skirmishers and chameleon) and are scouts. Cover your back field and your cannons, etc will not get a nasty surprise.

Slann:
The slann is the anchor for the whole army, he will always be a L4 caster and very often have lore of life. If you can do not let him cast Throne of Vines. This lets him ignore miscats on a 2+ and buffs all of his life spells. It also remains in play. Remember that if it is a life slann he has a max range of 24". He will also most likely have cupped hands which will let him shuttle a Miscast off on your caster on a 2+, caster must be in line of sight. The slann can take 4 disciplines that give him various abilities, including extra power dice, all the spells of one lore, the ability to negate 6's on enemy casters' rolls, be immune to non magical attacks and so forth.
Being skaven we have no shooting that is not magical, Use this. Slaan can take an ability that makes them immune to non magical attacks. If you have sniper units use them. Pour fire into his bunker, and make him spend all his power dice keeping them alive. Hit the unit the slann is in on any side but the front, This is the LM's ultimate unit, being able to get the T to an 8 and getting auto hits from shield of thorns, You wont break this unit in CC (they are stubborn, ld 9 or 10 and BSB), your best hope to get the fat frog is to snipe him, or crush the unit. *note if you can get an item that does not allow an opponent to deny a challenge use this on the slann, they have 5 wounds but a WS of 3, and crap armor save*

Temple Guard:
Most LM will not field these without a slann, they are pricey and only become awesome with a frog in the unit. They have a slightly (1 point) better armor save than saurus, and can take halberds.

Saurus:
These dudes are pretty tough. S, T 4 armor save 4+, these dudes can lay on some hurt. They also have 2 attacks. Again hit them in the side or back, Debuff and tarpit. Shoot them lots.

Cold One Cavalry:
I have not had a chance to play these dudes much, but first they are stupid. If you can get them away form their general, they have a better chance of wandering around, They also cause fear. Treat them like you would most cavalry.

Carnosaur:
If you run across one of these kill it with fire! It causes terror and likes rats for lunch, plus the guy on its back is a blender, that will eat most of your character and plenty of units.

Stegadon:
This is the LM version of a chariot, if he charges it hurts, after that its not as bad, shoot if you can, if not again flank.

Skink Priest:
This little bugger can be a pain in the arse if he is played well, he can mess up shooting, deny terrain (comet), and do some damage (lightning bolt). He is also fast Mv6 and can take an Item to make him fly. *Note a Slann can use a skink priest for LoS and Range when casting spells*

Salamaders:
If you do not already hate these you will learn to. Template shooting (they can use it every round) flaming attacks (it has an effective range of 22") and it causes a panic test when it wounds. The attacks are S3 but you are at a -3 armor save. They cannot stand and shoot, and cannot use the breath in CC. CC them and they are basically a saurus. A pack or two of salamanders left to themselves will destroy your army in no time. Deny them their shooting (remember its a template and so not affected by cover, spells etc) and break/kill the unit fast.

Razordons:
These are fairly temperamental, *I* don't use them, as salamanders are superior, but they have a lot of S4 shots and can stand and shoot, treat similar to salamanders.

Terradon Riders:
Flying, skrimishers, Fast cav. These are great Seige weapon hunters. they can also drop rocks once per game on a unit that they have flown over (they cannot do this on a charge its in the FAQ). Watch out for them, they are not very tough, but if you let them get into your shooter you are sol.

One thing to note, there are 2 (at least) Items that the LM can take that are skaven specific. One is a banner that gives frenzy, and hatred against skaven. The other is a dagger that gives the killing blow ability and fear against skaven. The dagger you will only find on a skink.

Engine of the Gods:
This is a nasty bit of work that you will find attached to a Stegadon. I have not fielded one as of yet, but it does an aoe pulse that hurts (range 2d6" d6 s4 hits no armor save) As well as granting shooting protection and better spell casting. And if goes off as long as the priest or slann is alive on the stegadon (and I dont think it uses power dice). IF the LM player has one, stay away from it and drop it fast.


Tactics:

Use the superior movement of skaven and the magical attacks to your advantage, kill his skinks, and whittle his big units down until you get them in CC. Avoid face to face contact if at all possible, if within 12" if the Slaan any unit has a Ld of 9 and will roll 3d6 and discard the highest. Breaking lizards is tough.
They have good armor and toughness as well so CC is going to hurt regardless. With an initiative of 1 on most of his models, a LM player is going to rely on his Toughness and AS to have enough models left in a unit to destroy you.
Kill/disable his slaan. If you can dispel his Throne of vines (8+cast), and his regrowth you will have the game. Watch out for him trying for irresistible casts. To a life slann miscasts are not very scary (ignore on a 2+ or cupped hands on a 2+ and lifebloom). Feedback scrolls, and dispel scrolls are very handy.

Try to set up a kill pocket, or bait his re-direct so you can get at his flank. Capitalize on his 4 movement and get your charge off first, use high Str mobs, and watch out for skinks. Poison is nasty nasty nasty, and you can bet that he will use them on your Abom, and other slower hard hitting units.

Good luck and happy hunting.

(All the above tactics are based on what I have learned fighting as LM, my experience with skaven is still limited)

-Naii
Edited by Naiilo, 8th November 2011 - 03:00 PM.
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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

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they lack effective hammer units.

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I disagree about LM not having a hard hitting unit. First off a 6x3 LM unit with spears has 18 s4 attacks on the charge and 24 s4 attacks normally. All of our Heroes can be given great weapons for 4 s7 attacks and they are relatively inexpensive. LM have plenty of Hammers and Anvils especially with cold blooded.


No where did I say they didn't have a hard hitting unit. I said they lack a HAMMER unit.

You are correct of course. 18/24 str 4 attacks is nasty for us. but our hammers pale in comparison to other races. and also. thats not really a hammer unit per say. its pretty much a standard lizard man unit. now maybe a well equipped scar veteran could turn it into a proper hammer (a unit whos damage stands out among the army)

so while all lizardman units are tough and decent. not one is particularly deadly and has to be looked out for (aka a hammer unit among the rest of the army) unless you only have a single saraus unit in which case you could consider it a hammer.

and kroxigars are not a good hammer at all. while they hit hard they give up way to much combat ress with the skinks that run with them.

as for lizard men being anvils, yes, cold bloodied leadership is bloody hard to get to break.

Note about slann comments; we dont have a force challenge item nor can we snipe. (a force challenge item would be very unskavenlike)

Edited by Mathusala0, 8th November 2011 - 06:20 PM.
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Naiilo
Clanrat
Ok that makes more sense about the hammer comment. Any LM army unit can be used as a hammer, but there are not any true blender units out there.

And I am going to agree with you on the Krox, after looking them up again, they are a saurus with an extra attack.

I would still watch out for LM especially if they have a scar vet in them, he is nasty (you will not often see an old blood because he is a lord and compete with slann for points).

I got the challenge idea from a Bret player using it so bummer there.

On another note, the weakest point in a TG bunker is the rear, there will only be one rank of units (2 in a high point game) between you and base contact with the frog, get a unit behind him and you will have a better chance of getting to his frog.
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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

I know bretonnia has the challenge gauntlet (they are my other race) I think chaos might have one (but im not 100% sure so dont quote me) and there may be one more race that has one. but its exceedingly rare to see it.

and yes, if Saraus have a scar vet they can be considered a proper hammer. and that is where your slaves should be headed.

krox aren't strength 6 or something like that?
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Borgomos
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Warriors of Chaos has Wulfrik the Wanderer who can force any character to accept his challenge, but other than that there is nothing.
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Naiilo
Clanrat
Nope Kroxx are T4 S4, the have 3 wounds and 3 attacks, that is 2 wounds and 1 attack more than a saurus, and they always attack last (hence then skink screen). They kinda suck for the price.
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Scarr, Reincarnated
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Yeah, Kroxigors are bad on their own, but with Skinks they are actually a very potent unit.
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Naiilo
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8th November 2011 - 07:39 PM
Yeah, Kroxigors are bad on their own, but with Skinks they are actually a very potent unit.
I do not agree, they are worth about 4 saurus, the math comes out to be:

4 Saurus - 8 attacks 4 wounds, 4+ armor save I1 Ldt 8
1 Kroxx - 3 attacks 3 wounds 4+ armor save goes last Ld 7

you also need 8 skinks for one kroxx (if you team them up) The only good thing about them is the 6 movement. I can take ~ 2.5 cold one cavalry for the same price, or 7 saurus, IMO ether one is a better choice than a skrox unit.

Only benefit is they can stand and shoot, but if they are getting charged you are going to get creamed.

(this is based on what I have seen so far, I have not used them, nor seen them in use)

However if your opponent does field them, keep in mind that they cause fear, and are aquatic, meaning they do not suffer penalties from water, and can use it for light cover. Your opponent will use them to flank charge you to negate rank bonuses and cause fear (fear = ws1). Shoot/Template the skinks and CC the kroxx, they have an I of 1 so you can grind them up before they hurt you.
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Warlock Matik
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(Z>)90 (ENW)90t = 1

Just to quickly point out - Krox are str4 base but their great weapons up them to str6. Seems to have been lost in there somewhere.
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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

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Just to quickly point out - Krox are str4 base but their great weapons up them to str6. Seems to have been lost in there somewhere.


i thought there was something fishy going on (besides being aquatic xD)

But they still are pretty bad, skinks only grant free combat ress to the opponent.
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IronShark
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I would say a Grey Seer is NOT a must have against Lizardmen. The discard 6s ability on the Slann can really screw with your ability to cast, and bouncing the miscast onto the Seer isn't fun at all. My typical strategy for Lizardmen is get a cheap dispel scroll carrier. Let them have Throne, and try to dispel the other crap. Dispel throne in you magic phase. Use the Scroll to keep him from doing much on a critical turn.

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But they still are pretty bad, skinks only grant free combat ress to the opponent.


Yeah, the skinks aren't much in a fight, but they can make the unit Steadfast, they make the Kroxigors basically untargettable in combat, and the mixed unit is immune to Stomp attacks. And they're M6, so they're not slow. Skink/Krox throwing out S6 attacks from the Kroxigors can grind down Monsters pretty well.
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