Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
The Skaven Guide to Competitive List Building (8th); READ THIS FIRST!
Topic Started: 26th October 2011 - 05:29 AM (54,075 Views)
Mathusala0
Member Avatar
The Evil Underlord

Welcome to the guide

TABLE OF CONTENTS
(to read a part, simply click on it)

Beginner mistakes (Recommended for new skaven players!)
Basic concepts of skaven list building (Recommended for Beginners and Intermediate players!)
Basic overlay of all units (Recommended for All)
Example lists (Recommended for beginners and Intermediate players)
Hammers (for beginners and intermediate players)
Anti shooting devises (for all levels of players)
Rare choices, (For beginners)
Competitive Fluffiness (For beginners and intermediates)
Psychology in list building, (for advanced players)
conclusion (for all)
LINKS


AND REMEMBER!!!:
No duplicate magic items! also the way lists are created has been changed as of 8th editions release,

your army may have up to 25% LORDS, up to 25% HEROES, it MUST contain a minimum of 25% CORE, it may have up to 50% SPECIAL and it may have up to 25% RARE.
Edited by Mathusala0, 9th April 2015 - 05:54 AM.
Posted Image
The Glossary of Common Underempire Lingo
The Skaven Guide to competitive list building (8th Edition)
The Skaven Castle Formation
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Borgomos
Warlord
We should sticky this. It can possibly save us the burden of re-discussing things over and over again.

In unrelated news : Most of our gaming community don't speak English(or at least not good enough) so I am translating such articles to Turkish in order for our players to benefit from the collective online opinion. Do you mind if i translate this one and give links in our local forum ?
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Anukex
Member Avatar
Stormvermin
+1 for sticky

Man thats a lot of good info!
Edited by Anukex, 26th October 2011 - 06:41 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
WillQueek
Member Avatar
Got Nerfed
Even for me, this is a very good guide. :D

We should stabba it.
FOR THE GLORY OF THE HORNED RAT OF COURSE!

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mathusala0
Member Avatar
The Evil Underlord

I have no problems with anyone willing to translate into danish and other. (i met a dane on here once so go figure)

just know im not done yet. I have to add quite a few links, i have to finish some topics (i just made a lot of place holders in some cases)
Posted Image
The Glossary of Common Underempire Lingo
The Skaven Guide to competitive list building (8th Edition)
The Skaven Castle Formation
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kimzi
Member Avatar
The one and only.
This is great. :D
Thanks a lot for writing this up.
,,,^_^,,, Proud owner of Clan Yersinia Pestis ,,,^.^,,, | >-- Possessed Mordheim Warband --<
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Warlock Matik
Member Avatar
(Z>)90 (ENW)90t = 1

*stabs topic*

Excellent stuff Math :)
Posted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Scarr, Reincarnated
Member Avatar
11th creator of the Skaven Achievements. Binder of IceAc.
Very good!

There is a place near me that's called Mathopen and I think it deserves a "Mathusala0 opens Mathopen" sign.

Now we only need a full guide on how to use every unit (even the ones that no one uses) most efficient and that should be a brother in arms topic where everyone contributes.
The Pox on you, AND your kind!

Player of games, watcher of games, gamer of plays.


Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
CapAmr05
Member Avatar


Very, very well put together thus far. Excellent broad points, and deepening the level of intricacy per expertise is an excellent idea.

--Cap
Lonewolf Grand Tournament April 28-30

The Beer Phase Podcast

Clan Skrittar
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Wargamejunkie
Warlord
Very good talking points.

Additional things to think about.

1) Stormbanner + Gutter Runners : Aka Bane of gunlines- For the low low price of 230pts ( 2 X 5 man Gutter Teams w/kit & Stormbanner) can win you the game vs any gunline alone. Factor in that against non-gunlines the Gutter Runners are hardly wasted scouting/harassing units I would consider both a no-brainer personally.

1a)Stormbanner- Just because you brought it doesn't mean you have to use it. For example, I have played with 2 WLC's since 6th/7th and have always taken the Stormbanner. Since we are allowed to choose when to activate it if I out-ranged the opponent I simply would just keep shooting with the WLC's and never activate the banner. In a tournament environment not having the Banner should be considered more of a risk than having it and not using it.

2) Slaves + Engineer Babysitter: If you have an Engineer in with the Slaves you will not be able to shoot into the enemy. You will have to weight the risk/return of added leadership out of bubble vs not shooting into the combat.

I have been out of the tourney scene for a couple of months and am just now getting back in, but the above are things that have stayed tried and true. Point 1 pretty much won me a tournament on Oct 1st as round 1 & 2 were against heavy shooting armies.
Come check out the GT I'm a Tournament Organizer for
Southeastern USA
October 3rd and 4th
Redstone Rumble GT
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Borgomos
Warlord
The issue of warlocks is trivial. If you really have to shoot the unit while it's in close combat, just get the warlock out of there via moving it out of the unit.(Or skitterleap) It's not like you cannot see the charge coming on your way. At 15 a pop the Engineer is expendable and is useful even as a minor roadblock to frenzied troops

The issue i see with Stormbanner is that people will be out to shred your BSB to pieces with all sorts of magic and other stuff. Some players like to deck the BSB with magic items instead of storm banner. This is where the 10-man SV unit with Stormbanner comes in.

I believe Storm Banner and Gutter Runners CAN be run in the same list. But I also agree with Mathu that most lists will either run one of them. Yes, we activate it when we want to, but sometimes it will persist onto turn X where we desperately want to shoot something but we can't because our own Stormbanner blocked us. Hence mobile lists like HPA+DW Castle Formation will usually run the Storm banner while "Sit Back and blast'em" lists may instead get that ward save for the BSB and leave it at that.





Edited by Olorin the Ancient, 27th October 2011 - 02:03 PM.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mathusala0
Member Avatar
The Evil Underlord

Quote:
 
and deepening the level of intricacy per expertise is an excellent idea.


... wha? :wacko: I don't know what your talking about. I just work here.



Quote:
 
Engineer Babysitter


forgot about this will add. thanks wargame

I added in a little about gunlines but your 1a) is more of a tactics deal and less of a list building idea.



Quote:
 
Now we only need a full guide on how to use every unit (even the ones that no one uses) most efficient and that should be a brother in arms topic where everyone contributes.


the problem as I see it (because we have tried this before, King rat did a section of articles about this back in the day.) is that while we can highlight the general uses for each unit, there are so many situations that are created by so many different circumstances that I don't think it would be possible to ever complete a guide like that.

I mean, I could write up general concepts for how to lay each unit (ie strengths, weaknesses, what to go after, how to deploy) basically like a profile thats about a page per unit (not counting characters) but i can never fully explain the tactical situations you can get into with said units, like say a stormvermin unit had the opportunity to act as a redirector unit against something or idk. basically I think that most of how we USE our units comes out of the players tactical expertise and skill and thats what really determines a good player and this can never be explained, it has to either be watched or learned through experience.

I guess the best example would be gutter runners. using them is fairly simple. scout them forwards, double tap slings and look for 6s in your roll. rinse and repeat against lone targets.

but its hard to explain in words that oppertunistic situations can pop up where diviating from standard tactics is a good idea, say a wizard was chilling out in the corner of a unit in charge range of the gutter runners, you might consider a suicide run to kill him. but that unit may have some kind of stand and shoot, or he may flee. there are just to many factors depending on the players and the situations that happen on the board.

Quote:
 
Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards... Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows; the soldier works out his victory in relation to the foe whom he is facing. Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions. He who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent and thereby succeed in winning, may be called a heaven-born captain.
- Sun Tzu


Thanks for all your support guys, I will finish this sometime today (most likely later tonight)
Posted Image
The Glossary of Common Underempire Lingo
The Skaven Guide to competitive list building (8th Edition)
The Skaven Castle Formation
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Wargamejunkie
Warlord
Borgomos
26th October 2011 - 02:10 PM
The issue of warlocks is trivial. If you really have to shoot the unit while it's in close combat, just get the warlock out of there via moving it out of the unit.(Or skitterleap) It's not like you cannot see the charge coming on your way. At 15 a pop the Engineer is expendable and is useful even as a minor roadblock to frenzied troops

The issue i see with Stormbanner is that people will be out to shred your BSB to pieces with all sorts of magic and other stuff. Some players like to deck the BSB with magic items instead of storm banner. This is where the 10-man SV unit with Stormbanner comes in.


I never said not to take engineers. I just gave a statement of fact concerning shooting into combats with them present(ie, you can't).
It is something to consider for list building on how many engineers to include in your list.

With all the random elements involved (charge ranges/magic dice) it is something to consider. As popping him out of the unit you have just given your opponent an easy way to cause a panic check to everything within 6" if the kill him.


As far as BSB kits go.
I think it comes down to what you are planning on doing with your army. If you plan to keep him in a bunker then I think protection is less important. If your bunker gets engaged in combat you will have bigger issues to worry about.

If you plan on playing more aggressive and have the risk of getting your BSB into combat then yes he will most likely need more protection.

I prefer to give the BSB a magic banner since we are only allowed 3 in the entire army. Stormvermin get the flaming banner to help tackle Regen monsters/units.
Edited by Wargamejunkie, 26th October 2011 - 05:41 PM.
Come check out the GT I'm a Tournament Organizer for
Southeastern USA
October 3rd and 4th
Redstone Rumble GT
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
CapAmr05
Member Avatar


Quote:
 
... wha? I don't know what your talking about. I just work here.


You've increased the amount of detail you're putting into explanations the further into the player level you've posted. You've kept it relatively simple and straightforward for the beginner sections and for the veteran section you delve into the more intricate details of why different combinations are viable and what makes them tick. It's good.


Quote:
 
If you really have to shoot the unit while it's in close combat, just get the warlock out of there via moving it out of the unit


Borg, You cannot just walk out of a unit locked in combat. The only way to remove a model from combat for Skaven is to Skitterleap it out (or let it die).

--Cap
Edited by CapAmr05, 27th October 2011 - 01:28 AM.
Lonewolf Grand Tournament April 28-30

The Beer Phase Podcast

Clan Skrittar
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Borgomos
Warlord
I'm aware that you can't waltz out of a combat Cap.

What i meant is that you can start the game with a warlock babysitter and at some point if you feel the slave unit will be locked in combat with a unit that you will want to shoot during said combat, the warlock can move out of the unit before the slaves are engaged.
Edited by Borgomos, 27th October 2011 - 06:15 AM.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Army Lists · Next Topic »
Add Reply