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My winning tournament list 2000 points; Victory!
Topic Started: 17th October 2011 - 11:00 PM (440 Views)
Graypaw


Hey fellow rats,
Two days ago i entered a tournament at my local hobby shop. This was my first warhammer tournament. It seems The Great Horned Rat was with me that day because i ended up taking first place! Anyway the reason i am posting this list is #1, was it just luck that i won or did i make a good list ,#2 what clan would u say this is most like?(i need to paint :P alot )

Lords

Gray seer , Talisman of preservation
285

Heroes

Chieftain , bsb , enchanted shield , sword of might
95

Warlock , warplock pistol , warp-energy condenser
128


Core

20 Stormvermin , full command , storm banner, tail weapon , warp fire thrower
293

50 clanrats , full command , shield
245

30 slaves, spears
75

30 slaves , spears
75

Special

10 Gutter Runners, poisoned attacks , slings
180

10 Gutter Runners, poisoned attacks , slings
180

Rare

Hellpit , warpstone spikes
250

WLC
90

WLC
90
total 1986

pls comment .
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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

its not a bad list, theres a few things you could fix up a bit.

no need for a pistol on the negineer

the storm vermin command does not need a tail weapon

slaves should have shields, not spears, and be in far bigger units.

other than that, fairly standard list.
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Borgomos
Warlord
+1 to what's been said.

If you have 20 Gutter Runners you might as well run them in three groups of 7-7-6 (That is my personal preferance)

Spears on slaves are indeed not good at all, run more of them or at least take shields instead.

Congratulations on your tourney victory. The Hornet Rat is sure to be delighted by the slaughter of the lesser races.

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Scarr, Reincarnated
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Stop saying that Spears on Slaves are dumb. They make "Heroic Slave Moments of Destruction and Doom"!

Yeah they are a waste. You don't want your opponent rage about them killing all his stuff and the Slaves should not take all the honor for the win.
The Pox on you, AND your kind!

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Writing Fighter
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I think it's being forgotten here that this is a tournament-winning list. If Slaves with spears are so horrible and awful, explain why his first tournament got first place? Amongst other choices, what he has can't be all that bad. I would question "improvements" as they might destroy what this army list can do and actually in fact weaken it.

Though detail of some of your games would help to clarify exactly what's going on.



- Pistol on Engineer - 1 shot in addition to any magic missiles, not bad
- Storm Vermin Command with tail weapons; it's an extra attack; needed or not, it's there
- Slaves with Spears allows them to actually kill things a bit rather than be 100% completely wasted in points by simply dying (6+ ward save I believe is highly overrated)


Getting first place, unless you're playing against a whole bunch of noobs and more than 2 games against different opponents, is proof enough that luck was not a factor. Your list does seem mediocre, but it won a tournament for a reason. I believe it might've been something you've done, not what you've taken. Lists don't win games or tournaments, players do (though sometimes with the help of dice).


Cong-rats.
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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

Quote:
 
unless you're playing against a whole bunch of noobs


or certain races, or certain lists, or certain missions, all sorts of things collaborate into what determines winners in tournaments, needless to say right off the bat we have the advantage of playing the number 1 race. hell if this list played bretonnia, woodelves, and beastmen theres no way he could have lost.



Quote:
 
- Pistol on Engineer - 1 shot in addition to any magic missiles, not bad

which has a 50 50 chance of hitting at best, only has a single shot, very short range, and chance to wound himself, all for X points that could be invested in more models


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- Storm Vermin Command with tail weapons; it's an extra attack; needed or not, it's there

a single extra strength 3 attack that again has a 50/50 chance to hit and is X points that would be spent buying another slave or 2, which in addition to another attack is another wound on the table.


Quote:
 
- Slaves with Spears allows them to actually kill things a bit rather than be 100% completely wasted in points by simply dying (6+ ward save I believe is highly overrated)


slaves will always get a few lucky kills, giving them the ability to get 1 more lucky kill (on T3 only) is not worth the 15 points. those 15 points will go to waste on the slaves, who are "just going to die anyway", investing in shields or even simply more bodies will allow the slaves to stall key units longer and uphold there supreme tactical status. Also, shields grant a 6+ armor in addition to the 6+ ward.

Quote:
 
I think it's being forgotten here that this is a tournament-winning list. If Slaves with spears are so horrible and awful, explain why his first tournament got first place? Amongst other choices, what he has can't be all that bad. I would question "improvements" as they might destroy what this army list can do and actually in fact weaken it.


So is mine ;), in fact, mine's won more than 1, many more than 1. and has competed in GTs. I think i can still safely give advice to someone who won his FIRST tournament.

now if he came up with a list that went unbeaten for weeks on end by a hard core meta gaming group, id start sitting down and taking notes.

(ps, you'll also notice he has a grey seer ;) )
Edited by Mathusala0, 19th October 2011 - 05:11 AM.
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Borgomos
Warlord
I'd say the list, the player, and luck combined will tell us who wins the game. There must be tools in the list that should be able to deal with what's being thrown at it, the player has to have the tactical acumen to deploy and properly answer what's being thrown at him, and luck has to be there to reward his decisions with proper rolls for...profit ?

Nobody said this list can't win a tourney or something like that. But the fact stands that most of us believe the list could use some work. Our book is blessed by the fact that most of our choices can be somewhat useful, and some of our choices are very underpriced that we can get away with fielding some eccentric choices.

Spears are of those situational choices. You pay to give a unit some extra attacks. Thats good. But the potential damage is very situational. The unit can miss.(very likely with sw2). The unit can fail to found (likely with str3). The few wounds the unit inflicts may not matter(One more corsair is dead!...aaand they killed over 20 of us). It's not useless, nor horrible. It's just underwhelming compared to what you could have been getting instead. More slaves. or shields. or some ironcurse icon on your Warlock.

and hey, i have been running Ikit Claw on my list and he's been doing quite well, but i still acknowledge that a kitted out Grey Seer is actually a better choice. Not because Ikit is horrible, he's a great chap, has the best saves in the entire character list! But what i am missing because i am taking him instead of that Seer is what makes him sub-obtimal.

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Scarr, Reincarnated
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A single step in the wrong direction doesn't mean you come late.

Keep that in mind. We also have lots of "extra" points to spend because if we make our list after scheme and then do some things here and there, it should not affect how the list works that much.
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Writing Fighter
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Clanrat
Quote:
 
or certain races, or certain lists, or certain missions, all sorts of things collaborate into what determines winners in tournaments

None of these contribute to winners. If you believe in that, why do you bother playing at all? Lists and races don't win matches, players do.


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now if he came up with a list that went unbeaten for weeks on end by a hard core meta gaming group, id start sitting down and taking notes.


So you are going to ignore anything and everything until something like this comes around, as opposed to taking notes at all times. The victory is at least worth mentioning, and not knowing what happened in the battle you can't really say much for sure.



Quote:
 
So is mine ;), in fact, mine's won more than 1, many more than 1. and has competed in GTs. I think i can still safely give advice to someone who won his FIRST tournament.

That comment is not only arrogant, but highly ignorant and doesn't impress me at all. All that tells me is that you're doing well with a popular army and probably a popular list build with the most powerful things in it, considering your suggestions to his list. If you said you did that with High Elves or Bretonnia, then we know for sure its because of your skill level, not ability to create cheese.

You can take a list that is specifically designed to defeat a very particular other list, and if your opponent has the brains, he can defeat you.


Skill > Luck, Lists, Races, Scenarios
In that much, I have a great deal of experience to know. My record with one of the weakest races in 40k with some of the weakest and poorest unit choices in the entirety of the game rivals your own with Skaven. Almost everything in every Army Book/Codex is capable of working in the right hands. If 3 Wood Elf players with 3 completely different lists can come out on top in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in a tournament just to prove they could, then it is enough for me to know the schematics of 40k and Fantasy aren't much different.

A player with a high amount of skill can overcome bad luck. He can also overcome a tailored list designed specifically against him, defeat any race of any army type, in any scenario.
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Scarr, Reincarnated
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+1 to everything Writing Fighter said.
The Pox on you, AND your kind!

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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

Quote:
 
That comment is not only arrogant, but highly ignorant and doesn't impress me at all. All that tells me is that you're doing well with a popular army and probably a popular list build with the most powerful things in it, considering your suggestions to his list. If you said you did that with High Elves or Bretonnia, then we know for sure its because of your skill level, not ability to create cheese.


yes it was highly arrogant, but ignorant? when I presented my current list to these forums it got shot down by most of the high level players because it ran globes, weapons teams (at all) a screaming bell (a highly unpopular choice until recently) no cannons at all, no plague monks, no storm vermin, basically no hard hitting units.

and the list was never tailored to beat one race, the list was tailored so that no race could beat me. and it worked against pretty much everything. now a few people on the forum are recognizing that but its still considered "unconventional" by the best of the best.

Oh and i do play brettonia as my other race ;) playing skaven brings around a certain dislike from other players so to balance it out i picked up brettonia so that A. they couldnt say i only played skaven, and B. so i could have a challenge. but high elves are by no means a low tier army.

so yes, if his list goes and does exceptionally well, then id ask for battle reports on what hes doing with it so i can see what his opponents are using and also how skilled they are (because you are correct, a well built army is pointless without an intelligent player behind it, but a bad list with an intelligent player behind it is pointless when it could be a good list as well not that this list is bad at all, but there are some VERY small tweaks it could have)

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So you are going to ignore anything and everything until something like this comes around


yeah pretty much,
I listen to a grand total of 1 person on this forum. that would be captian. and that is because he is a good player, good list builder, and very competitive.

I have a good deal of respect for many of the other players as well but i dont know their skill levels, ive never seen them play, Ive seen captain play, and he posts very descriptive battle reports. he is clearly a skill level above me. (btw cap if you read this, CD is pulling a swap from cold ones to corsairs)

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None of these contribute to winners. If you believe in that, why do you bother playing at all? Lists and races don't win matches, players do.


and it is the players job to insure he brings a competent list.

just last weekend me and my highelf buddy got faced off in a local tournament we rolled dawn attack. when i got first turn he wanted to concede right off the start because we both knew the game was over. (his list consisted of a thrace bunker with 4 characters, banner of the world dragon, supported by archers. very simple highly effective in close combat) sure enough by the end of the first turn 30 out of 40 white lions had died to shooting alone. by the bottom of turn 2 he had only those few white lions left, and on turn 4 he was tabled.

it had nothing to do with my skill, it had nothing to do with his skill, it had to do with a single dice roll at the start of the game. and the fact that his list was not prepared to handle 4 template shots. he was also high elves so not exactly any army can handle that much hurt.

i have plenty of other examples, but needless to say the list plays a very big part of it. and until you are one of those three wood elf players than it goes for you as well ;)
Edited by Mathusala0, 19th October 2011 - 08:02 PM.
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Graypaw


Wow , Ok where should i start.

matches
game one Victory points vs orks
won max points
game two blood and glory vs dwarfs
won max points
and last the game i hated to play... random deployment victory points vs.. regenerating vampire bunker list
lost

all players where not noobs but where new what they where doing .

my slaves i ran in blocks of 5 by 6 thats why i got spears not shields

i understand what u are saying about the tail weapon and pistol


anything i missed?
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Mathusala0
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The Evil Underlord

id still opt for more slaves over any upgrades for those units. they are a little on the small side.

and yeah the graveguard bunker (or sometimes bloodknight) is a real pain for us to deal with, my advice is to either do typical point denial (stall with slaves kill everything else) or try to eliminate his general, depending on the bunker he either is giving it ws 7 from a vampire most likely hiding behind it in a ghoul unit. or the vampire is in the unit with blooddrinker. if its in the unit, all you can do is play points denial, if its outside the unit your best bet is to try and hammer that ghoul unit with shooting and then hit it with thirteenth once its low enough. (or just eat him in combat) while that wont kill the bunker it will weaken it subsequently and also cause crumble checks.
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