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Question on Banners
Topic Started: 14th October 2011 - 11:32 AM (1,734 Views)
Writing Fighter
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Clanrat
SkavenDan
18th October 2011 - 12:44 AM
Grand Banner sucks. And here is why.

You can have all the combat bonus in the world at the end of the day if your guys are dying quicker than his (And skaven always do) then he will always be steadfast. You have to push any offensive (not office) option you can muster. A single kill can make the difference between breaking there steadfast and then all your bonuses come into affect. Until you get over the steadfast issue all your pluses mean nothing.
That doesn't make any sense and doesn't have anything against what I've said. Steadfast has to do with ranks, not kills. Even if you lose a dozen Skaven you should still have more ranks than the enemy. In fact, your opponent can lose by dozens of wounds and not care, especially in multi-wound units.

It's not much but every single combat I've ever seen against Skaven, I've never once seen an enemy unit Steadfast. The enemy holds because of their high Leadership value and lack of bonuses on the Skaven player's part, not because they were Steadfast. As far as I see, yes any and all bonuses are helpful because my opponents will only be Steadfast after he's killed off 3-4 whole ranks of Skaven in one unit.



As I've laid it out, scientific mathematics (hard proof) disagree with your statement. If you're talking about getting in extra kills with the Banner of the Empire, your chances of getting in even 1 kill is extraordinarily rare and highly circumstantial. It works only against T2-3 troops without armor, enemy units that are dying as fast (or faster) than the Skaven. Otherwise, you're just hoping for an extreme luck factor. That's not an opinion mind you.


But I don't see a Grand Banner sucking that much if it's in a unit that also has other banners, example paired with the Banner of the Empire. And if I've got a unit of Stormvermin charging an enemy unit on the flank holding those two banners, that is pushing any offensive option I can muster.
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Skrits
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I'm probably a bit biased with my bannerchoice since my regular opponents are:

High Elves (awesome against swordmasters and other T3 elves. The best part being that the banner comes before any of his attacks so it works offensively and defensively)
Dark Elves (tons of T3 as well)
Vampire Counts (a few T3 paired with some T4 without saves)
Chaos (sucks against them)

Next to that don't forget the power of Wither. I agree with Dan though. We Skaven rarely win combat unless we attack with 2 units at the same time. Most of the time we will be steadfast so it doesn't matter when we lose combat. The more models we kill the longer we stay seadfast because of having more ranks, thats why stacking offensive attacks works.

Maybe I have read over it before but I just noticed you were looking for a banner for your Stormvermin, in that case I would go for a different banner then mine. Armour piercing helps them alot more most likely
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Grey Seer Kwokka
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18th October 2011 - 01:52 AM
As I've laid it out, scientific mathematics (hard proof) disagree with your statement.
Ok, seriously. Stop.

Now.

Quite simply, you haven't provided any proof, hard or otherwise. What you're doing is applying an ambiguous edict (lacking in any mathematical reliability) and trying to mould it in the image of empirical evidence. Simply averaging out the result of die rolls isn't sufficient evidence to prove anything. For the sake of civility, I won't even go into your application of the phrase "scientific mathematics"; some online communities would eat you alive for throwing around such a thing.

If you (or anyone else) wants a more realistic model of whether the Grand Banner or Underempire Banner are statistically the better choice, then someone is simply going to have to produce some testing based upon actual scientific principles, such as sampling. Nominate (say three; weedy, moderate and solid) types of units and pit them in repeated instances of combat between the three units, using the two banners for comparison. Those are statistics that you can take to the bank.

If anyone wants to nominate some examples of such units, I'd be more than happy to run some simulations for everyone.
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SkavenDan
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18th October 2011 - 01:52 AM
It's not much but every single combat I've ever seen against Skaven, I've never once seen an enemy unit Steadfast.

As I've laid it out, scientific mathematics (hard proof) disagree with your statement.

your chances of getting in even 1 kill is extraordinarily rare

you're just hoping for an extreme luck factor.
You have never seen an enemy that is steadfast? lol Sorry I thought you where a proper player if you play noobs and morons well what is the big debate. Look though the army list section and ask yourself why no1 takes the Grand banner :P

Math hammer is hard proof of one thing your either a math student or you don't play enough.

Impossibly rare? So you don't use wither?

Any dice game has an element of luck!

No you must be right I mean you have been on the forum a hole month you have probably had skaven as long far be it for us experienced players to comment on your forum posts and inject some common sense why don't you take your grand banner to a ETC tourni and see how low you rank! And just incase you didn't get that last bit was injected with massive sarcasm I wouldn't want you think I was being serious :P
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Hivetyrant25
Clanrat
I can't find if anyone explained the armybook thing as it isn't in the FAQs, but it is a rule IIRC that the Army Book overrules the BRB (in various things) so you would use the Army Book costs for any items found in the BRB. Just thought I'd add that in here.

Also +1 to Skaven Dan.

IMHO a lot of the other banners do way better jobs than the Empire Banner, so that's why I will never take it unless I just want to waste points, or try something stupid.

Mutate: @Kwokka, Goblins, Empire Swordsmen, TK skeletons, Ghouls, High Elf Spearmen/LSG, Dark Elf Spearmen (becuz of hatred), Saurus, Skinks, Marauders take your pick!
Edited by Hivetyrant25, 18th October 2011 - 10:48 AM.
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Skrits
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I would really love some solid mathhammer on the banner of the underempire. :D
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Grey Seer Kwokka
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I'm doing coding work all day today so I'll try and whip something up and come back with the results.
My apologies for the double-post, but I've managed to compile some preliminary results.

I've experimented in lots of 1000 iterations (anything higher I'd say a single player is unlikely to see in their lifetime) versus six potential opponents. For the time being I have only take into account basic armor saves and toughness; no parry saves (if even relevant) or ward saves. This is because the general consensus is that saves of any kind do heavily dilute the results, which isn't too surprising. However, going up against high toughness targets still provides some results. Remember also that the Banner of the Under-empire makes one iteration for every combat phase, not just your own.

Please be aware that my knowledge of Warhammer rules and specifics is a little grey due to my absence from the game for many years. Any corrections or further suggestions for experimention I'm more than open to.

Case 1 @ 1000 Iterations: Vampire Counts Zombies (T2, No Save) - ~4.79 Kills
Case 2 @ 1000 Iterations: High Elf Swordmasters (T3, 5+ Save) - ~2.25 Kills
Case 3 @ 1000 Iterations: Skaven Plague Monks (T4, No Save) - ~2.31 KIlls
Case 4 @ 1000 Iterations: Orc & Goblins Black Orcs (T4, 4+ Save) - ~1.21 Kills
Case 5 @ 1000 Iterations: Brettonian Grail Knights (T3, 2+ Save) - ~0.55 Kills
Case 6 @ 1000 Iterations: Some Crazy Monster (T5+, No Save) - ~2.30 Wounds
Edited by Grey Seer Kwokka, 19th October 2011 - 09:24 AM.
IT'S INSANE!: The army diary for Clan Kwokka (sub-sect of Clan Volkn), currently led by Krushklaw the Mad, the evincar of evisceration.
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Hivetyrant25
Clanrat
Which crazy monster? Most of them have at least a 5+ save.
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Grey Seer Kwokka
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I didn't really have anything in mind, specifically. I used that entry as more of a proxy for high-toughness creatures.

I can always refine the results if someone wants to specify a commonly played monster-class unit.
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Writing Fighter
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For the sake of civility, I won't even go into your application of the phrase "scientific mathematics"; some online communities would eat you alive for throwing around such a thing.


Yes I've been to said places, but I prefer the somewhat smaller communities made up largely of smarter, more specific players. Once they get filled with arrogance and ignorance or lack of activity, I leave and find something else. Been that way for years.

And you can't really bend math results to favor anything. If the results don't look pleasing to you, that is the way they are.



Quote:
 
If you (or anyone else) wants a more realistic model of whether the Grand Banner or Underempire Banner are statistically the better choice, then someone is simply going to have to produce some testing based upon actual scientific principles, such as sampling.


That doesn't make any sense. Mathhammer, by automatically giving you the averages, nullifies sampling. You produce test results in order to achieve an average of results. If you already have those results, testing isn't required.

And yes there is Withering, but you can always factor that in with math, but also note that requires relying upon Wither and hoping you've got that as a randomly-rolled power, and then that you get to use it on the combat against the foe in combat with that banner. It works well once all of the necessary tools and situations just happen to fall into your lap. Almost as bad as relying entirely on the Dreaded 13 spell to win your games.




Writing Fighter
18th October 2011 - 01:52 AM
No you must be right I mean you have been on the forum a hole month you have probably had skaven as long far be it for us experienced players to comment on your forum posts and inject some common sense why don't you take your grand banner to a ETC tourni and see how low you rank! And just incase you didn't get that last bit was injected with massive sarcasm I wouldn't want you think I was being serious :P

This attitude is called ignorance, the direct refusal to look at someone else's information. You are putting off an idea without even knowing anything about it. What looks good on paper sometimes doesn't in the math, and what looks good in math often doesn't look good on paper.

I'm neither a math student nor new to this. I don't need to own Skaven at all or ever play a game to be on to something. It's quite important to at least listen to everyone on all sides before making an arrogant decision. If you ever play poker, a game far more reliant on luck than GW tabletop strategy games, you'd know that the math is extremely important to know.


If I played against you, I'd have one very serious advantage up my sleeve: you take me for a noob fool, and believe I don't know what I'm doing. This is the first step to how I have won my games in the past. The second is that I take up such a different approach to things that you have no idea how to properly counter it. Once I have psychologically manipulated my opponent to convince him he is winning and cannot lose, even making sure he's comfortable being distracted, my chances of victory have shot up dramatically.

It seems this principle is pretty universal to Warhammer, not just 40k.
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Skrits
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It's actually not that hard to get Wither if you really want it.

Grey Seer get's 4 spells from plague if he wishes. So you can get 4/6 spells and are able to choose a spell of your choice when you roll a double.
If you really really want Wither you can even add a Plague Priest who can take his signature spell to eliminate one more spell. This way you roll 4 dice for 5 spells the chance you will not get a double or roll wither are really really small.
It's even 100% guerenteed if you take a lvl 2 plague priest...

Anyways to each their own. I find it refreshing that someone is trying extremely hard to use units that are not cookie cutter and think of strategies that makes these choices actually good. Next to that it keeps these forums alive with new discussions so in that light go on with your crusade WritingFighter :D
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Mathusala0
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If I played against you, I'd have one very serious advantage up my sleeve: you take me for a noob fool, and believe I don't know what I'm doing. This is the first step to how I have won my games in the past. The second is that I take up such a different approach to things that you have no idea how to properly counter it. Once I have psychologically manipulated my opponent to convince him he is winning and cannot lose, even making sure he's comfortable being distracted, my chances of victory have shot up dramatically.


which implies to me that you consider everyone else an idiot yourself.

for a person who runs around calling everyone ignorant you tend to be quite ignorant yourself. we are experienced players, we are telling you what works yet you persist in saying that option B that has been proven by players experience to be not as good as option A.

Quote:
 
And you can't really bend math results to favor anything. If the results don't look pleasing to you, that is the way they are.


For one thing you seem to fail at math and reading.

Quote:
 
Having now realized the two banners cost the same, what I was considering was a unit of Stormvermin (not Clanrats) because the Stormvermin Standard Bearer is allowed to get magic banners, further increasing the bonuses to any BSB Chieftain who joins him. In a combat with Clanrats who have a Standard Bearer (+1), and Stormvermin with a Standard Bearer (+1) holds a Banner of the Under-Empire (+1 +2D6 A), with a BSB Chieftain holding the Grand Banner (+D3), plus at least 3 ranks (+3), and most likely a flank attack made by the Stormvermin (+1).

= 7-9 combat resolution before kills. I know there's something to be said about having more rats for those points, but even if the opponent has two such banners for a little more, that seems like quite a bit! It sounds to me like giving the ratmen a chance to defeat (and destroy) the foe rather than simply hold against it.


right off the bat you only count your banner ONCE. so regardless of the fact that both the clanrats and the stormvermin have banners only one is counted for combat ress. read the BRB. also, the banner of the underempire does not give addition combat ress, only through wounds does it gives combat ress.

make sure you are correct in your own maths before you go racking on everyone else for being "wrong"

so thats 5-7 combat ress before kill, and thats only if you have a flank, if you dont have a flank then thats 4-6 combat ress against your opponents 4 to start.
so, not counting banner of the underempire wounds, your only at most up by 2 to begin with and MOST armies will be killing far and above 2 models in combat (and more than we we kill)

As matik already said, the warbanner for 5 points less is +2 rather than +1, +2, or +3. it also means your not at the mercy of the dice.

Quote:
 
That doesn't make any sense. Mathhammer, by automatically giving you the averages, nullifies sampling. You produce test results in order to achieve an average of results. If you already have those results, testing isn't required.


and hes showing you the average results. and testing IS required. sometimes even the mathhammer can be wrong. it can show the average combat statistics of any units but it can never show the skill (for one who raging at me in a different thread over it) of the players, the mission played, ext.

Quote:
 
I'm neither a math student nor new to this. I don't need to own Skaven at all or ever play a game to be on to something. It's quite important to at least listen to everyone on all sides before making an arrogant decision. If you ever play poker, a game far more reliant on luck than GW tabletop strategy games, you'd know that the math is extremely important to know.


First off.... yeah you do, if you really really really want to say we're ignorant you need to actually play the damn game before implying that your better at it

and you dont listen to what we tell you either so why on earth should we listen to you? did you think we didn't read our skaven books? that we have never considered these options at some point in time?

because we have, and we found they didnt work, or in some cases that other things worked better.

This is WHY the things we do are what we do, because having PLAYED THIS ARMY IN THE FIELD, we have achieved numerous wins. and have EXPERIENCE. you currently, are migrating from 40k, which, while similar, IS NOT THE SAME GAME. and until you present a list and play games with it you have no experience or expertise in warhammer FANTASY (and hell if you never played LOTR...). hell the beginning of this post was you asking questions about the BRB and yet you have the gall to accuse members of ignorance.

Quote:
 
I'm neither a math student nor new to this. I don't need to own Skaven at all or ever play a game to be on to something. It's quite important to at least listen to everyone on all sides before making an arrogant decision. If you ever play poker, a game far more reliant on luck than GW tabletop strategy games, you'd know that the math is extremely important to know.


but its all about the skill right? it doesnt matter if the math is horrible as long as your a skilled player right? :P

My apologies to the admins for all the forum rules ive broken in this post.
Edited by Mathusala0, 19th October 2011 - 07:04 PM.
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Skrits
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It's pretty Skaven like to fight amongst the ranks right? :D
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Silas
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The Great Bunny. Now with a mop. :)

Guys no name calling please. Keep in civil. Silas
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THE BUNNY HAS AWOKEN!!!
THE BUNNY WILL EAT!!!
THE BUNNY SHALL FIGHT!!!
THE BUNNY SHALL WIN!!!
THE BUNNY SHALL INHERIT!!!
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Grey Seer Kwokka
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Grey Seer Kwokka
 
For the sake of civility, I won't even go into your application of the phrase "scientific mathematics"; some online communities would eat you alive for throwing around such a thing.


Yes I've been to said places, but I prefer the somewhat smaller communities made up largely of smarter, more specific players. Once they get filled with arrogance and ignorance or lack of activity, I leave and find something else. Been that way for years.

And you can't really bend math results to favor anything. If the results don't look pleasing to you, that is the way they are.


Not only do you choose only to respond to the least-relevant point of information, you're completely missing the point of why that singular piece of information was tendered.

I honestly do not see what you're waffling on about with math results being "bent". Considering that you're dealing with theory, compared with my empirical evidence, you sound more like you're attacking yourself.

The results of my testing clearly show that the banner has some merit even against moderately armoured opponents (the average no. kills on High Elf Swordmasters, with a 5+ standard save, was virtually equal to un-armoured, high-toughness troops), which you discounted as a reality based upon your so-called "hard proof" of averaging die rolls.


Writing Fighter
 
Grey Seer Kwokka
 
If you (or anyone else) wants a more realistic model of whether the Grand Banner or Underempire Banner are statistically the better choice, then someone is simply going to have to produce some testing based upon actual scientific principles, such as sampling.


That doesn't make any sense. Mathhammer, by automatically giving you the averages, nullifies sampling. You produce test results in order to achieve an average of results. If you already have those results, testing isn't required.


Just because it doesn't make any sense to you doesn't make it any less truthful. Maybe you need to consider the possibility that you simply don't get it.

What you're essentially saying is that a theory doesn't require testing and hence proof. Go and read up on the law of averages. You'll soon find that it's less of a law and more of a loose belief system, no different to karma or even re-incarnation.

If you're going to invest yourself in doing "Mathhammer", it might help if you actually did the math (and the Warhammer part as well judging from Mathusala0's suggestion, who I'm inclined to agree with). For the record, I'm not a math student either, so what's your excuse?

Writing Fighter
 
I'm neither a math student nor new to this. I don't need to own Skaven at all or ever play a game to be on to something. It's quite important to at least listen to everyone on all sides before making an arrogant decision. If you ever play poker, a game far more reliant on luck than GW tabletop strategy games, you'd know that the math is extremely important to know.

If I played against you, I'd have one very serious advantage up my sleeve: you take me for a noob fool, and believe I don't know what I'm doing. This is the first step to how I have won my games in the past. The second is that I take up such a different approach to things that you have no idea how to properly counter it. Once I have psychologically manipulated my opponent to convince him he is winning and cannot lose, even making sure he's comfortable being distracted, my chances of victory have shot up dramatically.

It seems this principle is pretty universal to Warhammer, not just 40k.


This sort of comment eschews exactly what everyone else is seeing in your response. You're selling yourself as some sort of tactical mastermind based upon cartoon logic. If you've ever been involved in any form of meta-gaming ever (not just miniature battles), you'd soon find that such playing possum is only going to work against feeble-minded opponents. Good gamers will see through such a ruse with relative ease.

If you're trying to promote the idea that you're better at a game than less-skilled individuals and you still need to play sleight of hand to feed your advantage / ego, you're succeeding.

Mutate: Some minor formatting. Also, why isn't my post count going up? :unsure:

FAQ
 
WHY DOESN’T MY POST COUNT INCREASE WHEN I POST IN <INSERT FORUM NAME>?
- Squeekpaw Guide
- General Wargaming Discussion
- 40k Painting and Hobby
- Lesser Races Painting and Hobby
- Skaven Roleplaying
- The Underdark Campaign
- Off Topic
These forums do not add to your post count because it is very easy to make a lot of posts in these forums and the posts in those forums do not necessarily have to deal with Skaven or Warhammer related topics. You can’t become a Clanrat if you never talk about Warhammer or Skaven after all. Also note that posting for the sake of increasing your post count can result in warnings or temp-bannings if caught by the Council. "Posting should always be done in quality before quantity." -_-


Take a guess... Silas
Edited by Silas, 20th October 2011 - 04:19 AM.
IT'S INSANE!: The army diary for Clan Kwokka (sub-sect of Clan Volkn), currently led by Krushklaw the Mad, the evincar of evisceration.
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