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Question on Banners
Topic Started: 14th October 2011 - 11:32 AM (1,733 Views)
Writing Fighter
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Clanrat
These are probably noob questions, but I was looking over different banners and I had a few questions.

First, the rules on page 52 say that you get +1 combat resolution for having a Standard Banner. I assume that means without taking any magic banners that I get +1 to combat resolution just like that?

Second, the War Banner under "Magic Banners" in the BRB grants +1 to Combat Resolution. Would that be in addition to the +1 already gained by the Standard Bearer present, or is it just +1 (and thus, only something for a Chieftain to consider)?

Third, the War Banner in Skaven Common Magic Items is 25, but the one in the BRB is 35.

Fourth, the Grand Banner for 5 points less (than the War Banner) grants D3 combat resolution if the Skaven have more ranks in that combat. Has that been pretty useful to any of you? What about a Chieftain with the Grand Banner with a Stormvermin unit with a War Banner?
Edited by Writing Fighter, 14th October 2011 - 11:32 AM.
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Hivetyrant25
Clanrat
1 Should be...
2 Should be as well
3 If there is 2 costs listed (as there usually is for pre-8th edition books) you use the costs given in the Army Book, not the BRB.
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Skavendrool
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I'll take a stab (hehe) at answering these questions.

1. Correct. In 8th editon Warhammer, every unit allowed to carry a banner generally does, for just this reason.

2. +1 for standard bearer, and another +1 for War Banner.

3. Use the cost in the army book - but make sure that you download the FAQs for boht the base rulebook, and the Skaven book.

4. I haven't found the Grand Banner that useful. Remember that you can only take one Battle Standard Bearer (Chieftain upgrade), there are generally more useful banners for him to carry than the Grand Banner (like, the Stormbanner).

Hope this helps, do make sure that you read and understand the FAQ.
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Borgomos
Warlord

I don't like the Grand banner at all, simply because i can't find a way to gain more from it than i would gain from, i don't know Storm Banner or Verminous Scurrying Banner.

The thing is, if the unit in question is losing(Slaves, maybe Clanrats), it's probably steadfast and therefore doesn't how much resolution there is.
Since your BSB's are squishy, being Skaven and all, i would never put it in a combat block of Stormvermin just to gain d3+1 combat resolution, especially since any decent infantry will direct attacks at that bsb and send it back to the great warp beyond...

All in all it's nice on paper but i feel that it has no niche in the Skaven way of fighting.

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Skrits
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Banner of the Underempire and Stormbanner are just to good to consider other banners.
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Silas
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You are correct on the first two though I don't know about the others. You can probably find an answerer to you third question in a FAQ.
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Writing Fighter
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Clanrat
Ok thanks. Yes, I'm reading the FAQs. The BRB FAQ just contains a lot of info and the word "banner" doesn't even show up in it at all, neither does "army book", "cost", or "price" (Ctrl+F will let you search for words in the PDF files). If I missed something in the FAQ, I would need it pointed out.



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The thing is, if the unit in question is losing(Slaves, maybe Clanrats), it's probably steadfast and therefore doesn't how much resolution there is.

-- Oh, I wouldn't be taking these banners and use them when I'm losing; I'd be taking them to turn a near loss or tie into my victory, stacking up so much combat resolution and rank bonuses to overwhelm my opponent's kill count. By the time the Stormvermin move in (the ones carrying the banners, since Slaves and Clanrats can't have them), his unit should be heavily outnumbered. Suppose he managed to win by 2 kills, with his banner and rules, manage to get 4 points of CR over me, I get +3 for ranks, +D3 for Grand Banner, +1 for Standard Banner, +1 for Battle Standard Bearer, and probably +1 for hitting his flank, thus turning his 2-4 points of victory over me into his loss by 2-5. And I don't think my opponent will normally be Steadfast against my mass of ratmen.


But as the BSB is a character and thus be targeted by multiple opponents (and I'm sure only a foolish opponent would issue a Challenge) he would most likely be cut down before his bonus effects is noted. I'm going to also guess that is why BSBs (for any army) that can opt to use special banners that grant bonuses prior to the combat (i.e. Storm Banner) are considered more useful.

The main reason I asked these questions was because I've seen far too many combats involving Skaven in which results were really, really close and all the difference in the world could've been made with extra bonuses of any kind.
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Flem
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Writing Fighter
15th October 2011 - 03:41 PM

[But as the BSB is a character and thus be targeted by multiple opponents (and I'm sure only a foolish opponent would issue a Challenge) he would most likely be cut down before his bonus effects is noted. I'm going to also guess that is why BSBs (for any army) that can opt to use special banners that grant bonuses prior to the combat (i.e. Storm Banner) are considered more useful.
Actually you could use them very well, Skaven have cheap chars and don't tend to go into a horde formation So 3 command group and 2 other chars means a third char can go on the second rank. Where opponents can't hit you and you could use your banner without the danger of getting killed.

For Example in a Clanrat unit

WL CM CM CM WL
CR WL BS WL CR
CR CR CR CR CR
CR CR CR CR CR
.... fill the rest up with clan rats :P

CM: command
WL= Warlock engineer
BS: Battle standard
CR= Clanrat

Those 4 engineers cost you 60 points and keep your BSB rather safe. Since they have to kill thel before your BSB steos to the front rank.


Flem,
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Skrits
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Couldn't agree more with Flem, considering that if you would have the option to do so you would probably throw 50 points of magic equipment on your BSB, throwing 60 points for having him in rank 2 for a while seems like a pretty good deal.
If you want some extra combat resolution I'd say give the banner of the underempire a go. 2d6 strength 2 hit on every unit your unit is in CC with is nice especially against enemies without high saves. Works in every CC phase so also the one from your opponent.
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Writing Fighter
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Clanrat
Skrits
15th October 2011 - 05:27 PM
Couldn't agree more with Flem, considering that if you would have the option to do so you would probably throw 50 points of magic equipment on your BSB
Unfortunately, the BSB cannot take any other magic items. Not sure if I'd want him to since the second rank can only ever make 1 attack. But thanks for the second rank idea.


As for the Banner of the Empire, it seems alright, but doesn't guarantee as much. Hmm, average 7 attacks, 5s to wound on T3, 6's on T4+, average would be about hardly 1 maybe 2 kills, with 6+ or no armor, and hardly better than 0 against any good armor. Mathematically against one unit, the Grand Banner is better. If you managed to roll well high against two units, like 9 hits against one, and 6 against another (15 total), you're now looking at hardly 2 kills.

It might look nice in wording but mathematically, I'd prefer the D3 combat resolution for 5 points more on the Grand Banner of Clan Superiority. Because unless you're fighting T3 or T2 troops without armor it will do better. Against anything and everything else, the Grand Banner is far batter; the lowest roll you get with it is superior to the average against most enemies with the Banner of the Empire.



I was also looking at some of the banners in the BRB, like the Razor Standard and the Wailing Banner. I have modelling ideas I'd love to try out for both. Banner of Discipline also looks pretty useful to us Skaven (for pretty cheap). Anyone use these before? (Not just for Skaven, wondering how these help other armies).
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Silas
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Actually as long as you don't give you BSB a magic banner he can still take other magic items.
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Warlock Matik
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(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1

The thing to be careful with regarding the Grand Banner is that the resolution takes the place of the normal +1 for a banner, rather than adds to it. This means that 2/3 of the time it is equivalent to, or worse than the standard War Banner which we get for 10pts cheaper than the BRB pricing of it anyway, and doesn't have the requirement of needing more ranks (though admittedly this is not too much of a problem usually).

As for other banners, I believe the Razor Standard is often used on Stormvermin to help cut through heavy armoured units, as is the flaming banner if you know you're going against regen units. Don't know about the Wailing Banner, but the Standard of Discipline allows us to get a Ld9 bubble if taken in an army with Queek.
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Skrits
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16th October 2011 - 06:34 PM
Skrits
15th October 2011 - 05:27 PM
Couldn't agree more with Flem, considering that if you would have the option to do so you would probably throw 50 points of magic equipment on your BSB
Unfortunately, the BSB cannot take any other magic items. Not sure if I'd want him to since the second rank can only ever make 1 attack. But thanks for the second rank idea.


As for the Banner of the Empire, it seems alright, but doesn't guarantee as much. Hmm, average 7 attacks, 5s to wound on T3, 6's on T4+, average would be about hardly 1 maybe 2 kills, with 6+ or no armor, and hardly better than 0 against any good armor. Mathematically against one unit, the Grand Banner is better. If you managed to roll well high against two units, like 9 hits against one, and 6 against another (15 total), you're now looking at hardly 2 kills.

It might look nice in wording but mathematically, I'd prefer the D3 combat resolution for 5 points more on the Grand Banner of Clan Superiority. Because unless you're fighting T3 or T2 troops without armor it will do better. Against anything and everything else, the Grand Banner is far batter; the lowest roll you get with it is superior to the average against most enemies with the Banner of the Empire.



I was also looking at some of the banners in the BRB, like the Razor Standard and the Wailing Banner. I have modelling ideas I'd love to try out for both. Banner of Discipline also looks pretty useful to us Skaven (for pretty cheap). Anyone use these before? (Not just for Skaven, wondering how these help other armies).
You do know that D3 combat resolution is 1,5 point on average which is pretty much the same as 1-2 wounds.

Also the banner of clan superiority doesn't ADD D3 but this D3 is INSTEAD of the normal +1 you get for taking a banner.

In any combat in which a unit bearing a Grand Banner of Clan Superiority has more ranks than it's opponents, the banner will add not 1 as per normal banner, but instead a total of D3 to it's bearer's combat resolution. Roll at the end of each combat.

So 33% of the time you get NOTHING out of the banner.
Next to that you only get the extra combat resolution if you have more ranks.

So I'm pretty confident that the Banner of the Under Empire is alot better even if it only get's one wound done per unit on average. :) It is awesome in on Plaguemonks with a Furnace that you know that will get attacked by multiple units.

MUTATE: damn Matik beat me to it :)
Edited by Skrits, 16th October 2011 - 07:29 PM.
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Writing Fighter
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Quote:
 
So 33% of the time you get NOTHING out of the banner.

Quote:
 
So I'm pretty confident that the Banner of the Under Empire is alot better even if it only get's one wound done per unit on average.

Um, yes those chances are superior to the Banner of the Empire and no, it's not 1 wound average on a unit. If you roll the best (a 12), you're only getting 2 wounds on a target of T4 or better, and that's before the armor save, and the ward (or whatever else they might have).


The Banner of the Empire is only getting 2.33 kills if the opponents have no armor at T3, when rolling average. If they have a lower Toughness and/or only have light armor, maybe around the same. Against anyone and everyone else, especially if they have heavy armor or better, the Banner of the Empire is pretty worthless in comparison. Like I said, the 2D6 attacks sounds juicy, but the math shows otherwise.



... Though I just now put 2 and 2 together and realized that the War Banner in the Skaven army book costs exactly the same as a the Banner of the Empire. With this being the case, you're getting the 2D6 attacks essentially for free, versus a potential +2-3 to combat resolution for +5 extra points. Due to the mathhammer it's still a bit debatable, but everything makes more sense.


Having now realized the two banners cost the same, what I was considering was a unit of Stormvermin (not Clanrats) because the Stormvermin Standard Bearer is allowed to get magic banners, further increasing the bonuses to any BSB Chieftain who joins him. In a combat with Clanrats who have a Standard Bearer (+1), and Stormvermin with a Standard Bearer (+1) holds a Banner of the Under-Empire (+1 +2D6 A), with a BSB Chieftain holding the Grand Banner (+D3), plus at least 3 ranks (+3), and most likely a flank attack made by the Stormvermin (+1).

= 7-9 combat resolution before kills. I know there's something to be said about having more rats for those points, but even if the opponent has two such banners for a little more, that seems like quite a bit! It sounds to me like giving the ratmen a chance to defeat (and destroy) the foe rather than simply hold against it.
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SkavenDan
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Grand Banner sucks. And here is why.

You can have all the combat bonus in the world at the end of the day if your guys are dying quicker than his (And skaven always do) then he will always be steadfast. You have to push any offensive (not office) option you can muster. A single kill can make the difference between breaking there steadfast and then all your bonuses come into affect. Until you get over the steadfast issue all your pluses mean nothing.
Edited by SkavenDan, 18th October 2011 - 12:45 AM.
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