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Empire Troubles..; Damn them!
Topic Started: 9th September 2011 - 04:59 PM (294 Views)
Andy140491
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hey guys

Im new to this forum and im also new to skaven.

On my journey through warhammer fantasy it had taken me a while to choose the army which suited my playstyle and characteristics.... i had gone though warriors of chaos, High elves, and even lizardmen!

I have eventually fount myself and skavenblights door and im head over paws in love with them! From there mass horde numbers of gnawing rat-men to their diabolical weapons of mass mayhem....the only thing is..... the people im playing with which are:

Empire.
Ogre kingdoms
High elves.

After writing out a army list im already half way there to getting what i desire. Its just that the empire guy who i normally play with is such a douche when it comes to commenting on other peoples armies, especially anything i collect for some reason!.

The story goes.... i had just recently brought the awesome new looking Exalted skaven vermin lord..(dribbles histerically)...the centerpiece of my army of doom... and the first thing this empire guy says to me is... " Well im still not sure if i like it.... it looks kinda bad from some angles..." now dont get me wrong, i can respect other peoples opinions. But this guy takes it 1 step too far.... every time.

Thats not what bugged me to be honest. He then when on to exclaim how easily it will be to destroy my army... in a serious tone mind you; and not anybody elses army ( they will put up a fight).... Now ive beaten him with chaos( too easily ).... beaten him with lizardmen... but this is when he was using beatmen which didnt seem a threat.

His empire gunman apparently, have large strength 5 template weapons, which will just chew through my guys if he hits and then il flee.... he can get up to 30 shots with his volley gun, which will hurt, and even his great cannons can outrange me....

Ontop of this his troops are almost as cheat in points as mine, so im kinda at a rock and a hard place is you get what i mean.... and i need some seriously council of the thirteen help, so that i can overun and crush this fool!

any advice will be greatly apprectiated on what units i should take and what are best effective agains the empire.
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RedPlague
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Chieftain
Quote:
 
His empire gunman apparently, have large strength 5 template weapons, which will just chew through my guys if he hits and then il flee.... he can get up to 30 shots with his volley gun, which will hurt, and even his great cannons can outrange me....


St5 template? I think he means his rocket batter which does hurt but is horribly inaccurate and has a chance of misfiring!

Hell Blaster has a short range and again may blow itself up! \o/

Sure his cannons have a range of 60" but that doesn't mean much when the battlefield corner to corner is only 72" !


His troops are almost just as cheap but your rats have

-Better Movement
-Better Initaitive
- *Usually* better leadership


Honestly empire are not one of the armies that we have much trouble against, since they are only T3 our Plague spells can kill droves :D
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Andy140491
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RedPlague
9th September 2011 - 05:07 PM
Quote:
 
His empire gunman apparently, have large strength 5 template weapons, which will just chew through my guys if he hits and then il flee.... he can get up to 30 shots with his volley gun, which will hurt, and even his great cannons can outrange me....


St5 template? I think he means his rocket batter which does hurt but is horribly inaccurate and has a chance of misfiring!

Hell Blaster has a short range and again may blow itself up! \o/

Sure his cannons have a range of 60" but that doesn't mean much when the battlefield corner to corner is only 72" !


His troops are almost just as cheap but your rats have

-Better Movement
-Better Initaitive
- *Usually* better leadership


Honestly empire are not one of the armies that we have much trouble against, since they are only T3 our Plague spells can kill droves :D
His empire gunman apparently, have large strength 5 template weapons, which will just chew through my guys if he hits and then il flee.... he can get up to 30 shots with his volley gun, which will hurt, and even his great cannons can outrange me....

Ahh sorry im mean his empire cannons, His empire gunman are str 4 with armour peircing... 1 tactic i though of was to use gutter runnur to tie up his artillery?. and as for plague spells... its safe to say thats the way to kill empire?

Im a great believer in not underestermating a unit until its fielded... so im not too sure which units are worthwhile.

Everybody tells me to take a hellpit, but i seriously cant understand the big hype about the besties... i more in love with the jezzails and lightning cannons!
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Razuli
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Gutter runners are probally your best bet to take out warmachines, but you are going to want to use scout instead of sneaky infiltrators, since good scouting can see the GRs close the enemey warmachines by turn two anyways. It doesn't matter that great cannons are longer ranged than our own when gutter runners can kill them so quickly, If he is fielding as much ranged as it sounds like he is, the storm banner and/or howling warpgale ( and you don't necissarily need both) would majorly disrupt him. If you are going to tailor your list to fighting empire, than the pestilens units will serve you well, since their higher T offers more defense against empire's ranged weapons than armour would, and all of the pestilens stuff excels at killing low T, and PMs would be especially strong here since empire (greatswords not withstanding) aren't know for having good armor. Actually pestilens would also work well against your Helf opponent as well.

I'm in the camp that you shouldn't take a hellpit unless you are moulder themed or playing very large games, but thats just me. I don't really like it either, though I do see its strengths. It has a lot of wounds, a good regen save, its "average" number of attacks will still decimate units, and it can come back form the dead. People fear it so juch they will devote a lot of fire to it, saving your rats, or otherwise try to avoid it, at which point you can use it to dictate where your opponent moves, all while being undercosted.

Muatate: If you have a list of what you own, we could help you build a list.
Edited by Razuli, 9th September 2011 - 06:07 PM.
skavenmatt,Sep 11 2010
10:05 PM
Playing skaven to minimize randomness is like going to prom with your sister, you can do it if you really want, but in the end everyone will still laugh even if you do get lucky.


Clanlord Trask
18th April 2011 - 03:46 AM
I always take at least one Warpfire Thrower. You can't always rely on your opponent to do massive damage to your troops. Sometimes, you just have to do a job yourself.

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Clanlord Trask
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Quiet, I'm plotting.

I'm a little confused, have you actually played against this guys gunline Empire army with your Skaven yet?

Personally I would get at least a game under your belt against him, using a list you have built that you are happy with. You will then get an idea about how the enemy army plays, and how sections of your army stack up against it. We can offer all sorts of advice here, but can't know what is relevant to your particular situation.

Having said that, Empire gunlines are a terrible one trick pony. All scary shooting, and then soft once in combat. My overall advice is, get into combat as quickly as possible. The more units in combat, the less options for shooting your opponent has. And having an enemy unit stand around and do nothing is great, as they aren't contributing to the game at all. So get as many bodies onto the field as you can, as many largish (30-40) Clanrat and Slave units and just push up the field. Obviously, the larger your unit the longer it is going to take shooting to whittle it down to a size that causes tests. And if he focuses all his fire on one unit, than that is the rest of your army clear to advance.
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scratchydoom
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Everyone has mentioned gutter runners.
However they havn't mentioned (in my brief read) that using slings and poisoned weapons (giving your slings poisoned attacks too!)
are one of the best way to run these guys. It makes them amazing at attacking high toughness units or just pestering his gunlines
after you kill his warmachines.

If he is going extremely shooty heavy, don't field any large units such as screaming bell, furnace, doomwheel or HPA. Instead
Focus on making a fast hitting list with a lot of models, particularly large units of slaves. A large unit of slaves can take on
empire units in combat if you keep your BSB near by for re-rolls and general. As people have said try to pick up the storm banner
and ironcurse rune (-1 to shooting attacks against the bearers unit). Sounds like this guys a bit of an arse, try to get an idea on what
he plays with and what you are thinking of playing with and then we can give you some better advice :D

good luck!
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Grey Seer Exahm
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Gribbly
It's probably because it's pretty much a given that if we say "gutter runners", we mean "gutter runners with slings and poison".
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reddogfish77
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If you really want to bother him take a verminlord as well...

of course it is not the most competitive thing, but if you can avoid him getting hit by everything in the Empire army he should be in the backfield by turn 2 killing warmachines and causing general havoc.

empire is an all rounders list... i would suggest making it a far less rounded list by...

1. stormbanner - take out 1st or 2nd round of shooting pretty much.
2. as stated gutter runners
3. warplighthing cannon - for all those pesky ranked units and cav also its really fun
4. plague spells - i find it hard to think of ruin with the same warm fuzzy feeling
5. so many slaves you find it hard to fit into your deployment zone.
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scratchydoom
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10th September 2011 - 10:57 PM
It's probably because it's pretty much a given that if we say "gutter runners", we mean "gutter runners with slings and poison".
it sounds like this guy is new to skaven so even though its a given, i think its worth stating....
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Skavendrool
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I would NOT take a verminlord against empire, especially someone who runs a gunline. Your oh-so-expensive points sink WILL get shredded by cannons, handguns, crossbows etc. Take the Stormbanner (read the FAQ so you know how it works), and so many bodies (slaves, slaves, and a few more slaves) that he cannot kill everything. I prefer deep formations of slaves, to maintain steadfast, don't bother going with horde. Put your head down, and run forwards into combat. Don't try to outshoot or outspell him, get into combat. Once you get his combat blocks tied up in endless combat with buses of slaves, you can crush the special effects (war machines, handgunners) and mop him up.

As with any plan, things can of course go wrong, his rocket battery might crush your general's unit, and everybody flees, etc., but that's life as a rat.

I don't think that Empire is a particularly difficult enemy for us.
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SkavenDan
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Skavendrool
11th September 2011 - 11:30 AM
I would NOT take a verminlord against empire, especially someone who runs a gunline. Your oh-so-expensive points sink WILL get shredded by cannons, handguns, crossbows etc. Take the Stormbanner (read the FAQ so you know how it works), and so many bodies (slaves, slaves, and a few more slaves) that he cannot kill everything. I prefer deep formations of slaves, to maintain steadfast, don't bother going with horde. Put your head down, and run forwards into combat. Don't try to outshoot or outspell him, get into combat. Once you get his combat blocks tied up in endless combat with buses of slaves, you can crush the special effects (war machines, handgunners) and mop him up.

As with any plan, things can of course go wrong, his rocket battery might crush your general's unit, and everybody flees, etc., but that's life as a rat.

I don't think that Empire is a particularly difficult enemy for us.
+1 agree with every point. Large targets do not help you against gunlines. We are not playing nidzilla here. Swamp him with loads of cheap units.
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Flem
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A blood curling cough a day, keeps the assassins away

Take some rat dart units and use them as cover for your units. His gunman and volly gun will have a -2 to hit on any unit behind them.
They also are quicker then your normal skaven and can bring down a warmachine if they get there.
As already stated i wouldn't try to out magic an empire armie because of the extra dispell dice they gain with their priests /arch lectors. Plague and scorch might kill empire soldiers quickly but they can be dispelled.
I'd even consider bringing a brass orb for steamtanks, warmachines if you get close enough or even for his general troops (they ony have initiative 3 in most cases.

Flem,
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Let all of skavendom tremble before our pox and might, beware our vengefull gaze brought forth in both fever and blight !


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Rats&Goblins
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Warlocks with Brass Orb and Doomrocket will ruin his day.
With the Brass Orb you ideally want to be skitterleapt to 1" away from the desired target so that if it misfires, you still hit the deader. (STanks and Warmachines are prime targets)
With the Doomrocket, place your warlock 14" away from the centre of the target unit, ideally so that the line of fire has other enemy units infront and behind the target - so that even a non-average roll will hit something. Roll 4 dice, and 4 dice only if you are at 14" range - it will most likely hit!

Poison Wind Mortars - not so good against un/low armoured low-T troops, but still nice to drop on bulky units.

Gutter runners with slings and poison - they can't charge on the turn they arrive, but they can shoot. 2 Shots per 'runner, You're only hitting on 6's, but those that hit will wound even warmachines with T7 thanks to poison. 2-3 units of 5-6 is relatively cheap on the points (and can be constructed from the night runners or clanrats boxes with a bit of imagination and greenstuff)

Plague monks should mow through anything in their way from the empire army (greatswords/knights might be an issue with the extra armour), give them plague banner or razor standard for extra bite. Send them up a flank with a small unit of slaves covering their unprotected side. Bless with filth makes it even more entertaining if you happen to roll & pull off the spell.

Give someone in your general's unit the Ironcurse Icon from the BRB and the shadow magnet trinket, have someone in the army toting the storm banner to trigger in the opponent's first turn, try and pop off Howling Warpgale at every opportunity.
Handguns aren't to be feared by skaven units (just too many rats to make a difference!), especially when you can stack up to -4 to hit with BS shooting. Templates (Mortars particularly) are a pain, so covering your general's tail is worth the 5pts for Ironcurse to stop them whittling down his unit as quickly.

With the Vermin Lord, if you are set on taking him, bear in mind that every cannon in your opponent's army will be aiming for him (as well as anything else that can hit him most likely!), but he's got a 16" march move, so he's going to be in combat on his second turn - keep him in combat and they can't shoot at him. Pray for first turn, then you can stymie his shooting with Storm banner and warpgale for his first turn, and then be in combat turn 2. Otherwise, keep him hidden on opponent's first turn(behind a big building), march out on your first turn, trigger SB in opponent's second, and then charge in...

However, best answer to a gunline is lots of bodies - big units of rats, with support to take out the guns (Gutters) and hurt big blocks of combat troops (Doomrocket / other templates) and the occasional STank (Brass orb).
If you want to take big things... take a LOT of big things (VL, Doomwheels, HPA's, Bell or Furnace, Cannons), give the guns so many targets that they can't possibly down them all before your troops get in too close to shoot at.
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