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Which is more beneficial, bodies or equipment.
Bodies 11 (35.5%)
Shields 8 (25.8%)
Situation dependent 10 (32.3%)
This poll is stupid 2 (6.5%)
Total Votes: 31
Bodies or shields?; Which one?
Topic Started: 7th September 2011 - 08:10 PM (786 Views)
avenger649
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My blade shall cause your death
Since I have seen several discussions on this I wanted your opinion on whether it is better to have shields or simply more men. There are arguments on each side but I am yet to see a comprehensive verdict. So, in my true style I made a poll, just for future reference. Yes, statistics are important to me in arguments.
I would also like to see the general view on this and reasons for choices as it can affect games.
Edited by avenger649, 7th September 2011 - 08:10 PM.
I have awoken, so have my pets.

My blades will be upon you soon.

Then you will be bathed in warp-fire.

*Laughs evilly*


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mrtn
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Swashbuckler
Totally depends on which unit we're talking. Skaven slaves? Clanrats? Stormvermin? Gors? Chaos Warriors? The answer is different every time.

Voted "This poll is stupid".
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Scurrilous
Warlord
Clanrats and slaves, I say shields unless you have a specific plan to utilise massive numbers. 6+ and 6+ can sometimes swing the difference in combat for you.
Tournemant results to date:
vs Vampire Counts: 1 victory
vs Dwarves: 1 victory
vs Daemons: 1 Draw
vs Brettonians: 1 draw, 1 loss
vs Skaven: 1 victory
vs Lizardmen: 1 victory
vs Dark Elves: 1 loss
vs High Elves: 1 loss
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Razuli
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Grey Seer
I voted depends on the situation. Despite being a proponent of sheilds on slaves, I don't think all situations call for them to have them. Also, SV combat blocks shouldn't have them at all (though I still field my small flank protecting SV with shields).
skavenmatt,Sep 11 2010
10:05 PM
Playing skaven to minimize randomness is like going to prom with your sister, you can do it if you really want, but in the end everyone will still laugh even if you do get lucky.


Clanlord Trask
18th April 2011 - 03:46 AM
I always take at least one Warpfire Thrower. You can't always rely on your opponent to do massive damage to your troops. Sometimes, you just have to do a job yourself.

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Sammy the Squid
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Back to retirement!

It really depends on the situation, but since this is on a Skaven forum I will assume we are talking about shields on Skaven units. Other armies also have different weapon options, which would make it even harder to give a comprehensive answer here!

Clanrats should have shields. They already have Light Armour, so they will have a decent 5+ save plus parry, which isnt bad at all for so few points. Importantly, they will often house characters or at least be able to fight other armies 'regular' infantry in combat, and this armour will increase their survivability and hopefully keep them steadfast longer (because you will unlikely be winning the fights!). Life is cheap, but the lives of Clanrats are ever so slightly more valuable than that of Slaves...

Slaves are difficult... I dont use shields on them, because they are totally expendable and I dont like putting more points into them. BUT its a cheap upgrade for shields, and a few good parry saves may keep them around for longer, so I definately can see the value here. But Slaves themselves are so cheap that you can bulk out the numbers for the points saved on shields...

Stormvermin I havent used much since 8th edition. I used to be a fan of having shields and using them in combat, but since 8th ed disallowed this, they seem like an expensive upgrade for little protection. If you are worried about shooting, Storm Banner is probably all the protection you will need. Or an Ironcurse Icon. Or have scarier things to draw enemy fire. But shields for 1 extra bit of armour save? Doesnbt quite seem worth it to me. But as I said, I dont have Stormvermin experience in 8th edition, so I may be wrong...

Characters? well, if they dont have 2 handed weapons they should have a shield. simple!

Thats my views anyway :)

- Sammy
"If the squidman can't do it, no one can!!"

Wins/Losses/Draws

Skaven Clan Rattenkrieg - 108/58/20
Dark Elves - 44/14/8
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Beastmen - 50/25/2

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tunnelrunner
Clanrat
Shields on clannies and slaves. Bodies with Stormvermin
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Metacarpi
Clanrat
I tried to vote, but I got an error message telling me I don't have permission to! :huh:

Anyways, I'd have gone for situation dependant.

I run my 40 Clan Rat units with Shields, to give them a bit more survivability, mainly because one of my 40 CR units pushes my Screaming Bell. I run a second 40 CR unit with shields, but there's no real thinking behind that other than "just because".

I run my 50CR unit with Spears and in Horde formation, just to maximise attacks (I also do this with my 40PM units, w/BotW/PP/Plague Banner).

My two-penneth there. ^_^
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WillQueek
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Got Nerfed
i prefere shields, also Mrtn, i'm pretty sure avenger means Clanrats and Slaves, as 'discussion' (where he speaks of) are about shields or bodies, it's about Skaven, becose it's in SKAVEN general discussion, so CW's and gors fall off already.
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avenger649
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My blade shall cause your death
Metacarpi
8th September 2011 - 09:27 AM
I tried to vote, but I got an error message telling me I don't have permission to! :huh:
That is because you need to be a clanrat before you are allowed to vote.

Sorry for confusion though as it is in general skaven discussion I thought it was obvious.
I have awoken, so have my pets.

My blades will be upon you soon.

Then you will be bathed in warp-fire.

*Laughs evilly*


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Metacarpi
Clanrat
Ah, fair enough! :)
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koffietje
Warlord
I hate mathematics. Let me call ot my Warlock for this.

Armour save, parry save. :
+5 and +6. Thats 33 percent chance and about 16 percent chance.
So on 1000 rolls (always use big numbers...) 330 of them would survive on the armoursave.
That means 670 of them can use the parrysave. 16 percent of 670 = (where did i put my calculator?) = 107.
So when 1000 rats with shields get hit and wounded , about 437 of them would still survive because of the +5 armour save and the +6 parry save.

Now, lets look at the clanrats without the shields. 1000 clanrats with shield = 4500 points.
so for the same amount of points you would get 1125 clanrats without shields. They have a +6 armour save (light armour) but no parry save.
So 1125 clanrats get attacked (depending on what monster they get attacked by... more of them would survive the primal attack on the to hits and the wounds. Lets say the survival rate of the 125 extra rats is more or less 1/2 (which is pretty low). So thats an additional 62 rats that survive the primal attack already.
Thats still 1063 clanrats that need to take their armoursave test. With a 16 percent chance of luck. Thats an extra 170 clanrats surviving.
Thats a total of 232 of clanrats surviving.

So with shields about 44 percent would survive a single attack. Without shields only 23 percent would survive the attack. But... Without shields you get to use an additional 125 of those pleasantly annoying get-in-the-way-ers. So I think the answer about whether or not to use shields depends partially on your tactics and the way you place your rats on the battlefield.


My warlock engineer would like to add the following addenda :
- 1125 clanrats are more difficult to attack then 1000 clanrats, since there's more of them and still only so many of the opponent. So that would make an additional increase in the amount of survivors. It would mean that 80 of them wouldnt be attacked , so that might increase the amount of survivors to a total of 311.
- 125 extra clanrats makes a 3 percent attacking increase. , meaning an extra 1% of your enemies would get killed. Which in additional rounds would mean, less of the enemies can attack you, so you get less casualties. About 1 percent less casualties. Upon 1125 rats, thats about 11 survivors. Increasing it to a total of 322.
More survivors means , more killings, means less counter attacks, means an increase in survivors, means... (continue this reasoning for about 6 full rounds = more or less 7 close combat rounds ) = an additional 50 more clanrats surviving the attack. Which means a total of 372 clanrats surviving.


second addendum=
- more kills, meanse more combat results = bigger odds on fleeing.


So I vote...

against.................. won ............ lost

Skaven...................1...................0
High Elfs.................1....................1
dark elfs.................0....................0
chaos warriors.......0....................0
demons..................0....................0
dwarves.................2....................1
bretonian................0....................0
empire....................0....................0
lizards.....................0...................0
tomb king................0...................0
vampires.................1...................0
beast men...............1...................0
wood elfs................0....................0
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JollyPuggles


Ah the age old debate of whether a shield in the hand is worth more or less than two meat shields in the bush...or something like that!

It really comes down to playstyle, but generally speaking, I prefer to take bodies over shields.

Skavenslaves aren't worth protecting...if you want to upgrade them at all, improve their offensive capabilities by giving them lessons in foul language and crude gestures...no, wait, I meant the other kind; give them spears or slings. They're only there to die anyway, so why delay the inevitable?

Stormvermin can't use shields in CC and already come in at 7pts a model...give them shields and you could buy 2 Clanrats or 4 Slaves for every Stormie you have. Keep their cost down and just buy a better meatshield (i.e. more Slaves). If you want to protect your precious Stormies from missile fire, investing in the Shadow Magnet Trinket is probably cheaper and more effective (just so long as you have the points to spare on one of the characters you're fielding with the unit).

Clanrats are the exception to the rule...you get 8 Shields for the price of 1 Clanrat, so the investment is just about worthwhile, especially for smaller units (you know, the ones less than 60). However, this is really only true if you're not equipping Spears. Driving their price up to the lofty heights of 5pts per model is just crazy talk...their only Clanrats! Make the choice between Offence or Defence (Spears or Shields; which you consider which is open to debate though...personally I fall on the side of Spears being Defensive...), because trying to have both doesn't really work. Losing the Parry Save when you take Spears makes the 1/2pt you spent on the Shields worth that much less that it becomes wasted points.
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DNA Maniac
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Stormvermin
shields all the way.

Slaves are expandable for sure but to hold out enemy for one more round? casting more spells or firing more warpstone on them? that worths more then lets say12,5 points. And about clanrats they have to be protected a bit cuz they are the bulk of the army and usually carrying some of your characters. Plus, when outflanking the enemy, i want more CR!

But still depends on situation; i newer buy shields if they are pushing a bell. They are unbreakable, why to protect?

And more depends on your style since you may have a whole different tactic then i am using, something like i didnt even imagine.

And spears,

seriously? Spears? adding 5 attacks with ws2 s3? are you planing to tickle a dwarf with a longer stick so he can gigle from a distance? cast death frenzy if you wish to double their attack, no one is going to dispel it anyway...

Anything in skaven list that can grab a spear is not meant to kill. if they had halberds or great weapons that would be killy, not the long sticks.

And yes there are slings too. You may kill a single enemy or two in a game if you get lucky or you may just ignore thoose points, begin the game with less points then you oppenet and that would be the same.

"kill kill! quick quick!"
Edited by DNA Maniac, 10th September 2011 - 05:38 AM.
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dutchwarlord
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Plague Cencer Bearer
I always go for shields. Slaves will survive longer and they have even a chance to win with shields against small enemy units. Clanrat also have a bigger chance of winning the combat with shields.

(But than I am using smaller units clanrats than most players, about 30-35 for clanrats, so they NEED shields)
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Deacon Hakflem
Stormvermin
mrtn
7th September 2011 - 10:40 PM
Totally depends on which unit we're talking. Skaven slaves? Clanrats? Stormvermin? Gors? Chaos Warriors? The answer is different every time.

Voted "This poll is stupid".
I agree.
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