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MiniWarGaming.com open letter to Games Workshop
Topic Started: 6th September 2011 - 09:38 AM (1,097 Views)
Skaven Lord Vinshqueek
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Bunny ear says flop

The following is a few months old already (and with the joy of our Search function, I know this hasn't been posted yet), which I found at the Herdstone (so credits go out to mrtn who posted it there). It basically is an open video-letter from MiniWarGaming.com to Games Workshop, discussing various points and basically give a series of constructive criticism to Games Workshop regarding their position and role within the miniature wargaming industry, as well as their stance towards retailers and their customers.

In total, it's a bit over half an hour of viewing, but most definitely worth the time, as they give some very decent points.





Greetz
In the Horned One we trust, all others we monitor.

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Skaven track record [W/D/L] @ 17th of August, 2014: BB 34/19/55; MH 9/2/6; WHF 17/8/30
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Ratty Gnawtail
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Totally not a magpie

And Gamesworkshop's reply....

But to be serious the points discussed are very true. I was convinced that the price rise at the same time of Citadel Finecast was their way of selling cheaper products for more money (though I did later notice the price rises elsewhere.) I hope Gamesworkshop learn something from the points raised as it would be sad to see an exodus out of the hobby.
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RedPlague
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Chieftain
Yeah, to be honest I don't think I will be buying any more warhammer armies..

I have 5k of High Elves and 5k Skaven but now another decent sized army would be what...about 300 quid?

Tbh I only have so much skaven thanks to the IoB blood set...gotta love all those cheap sets going for £20-22 for £60-70 worth of models

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avenger649
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My blade shall cause your death
Yes for rebellion. Seriously though, there are major problems connected to games workshop. Not least about the rule-set. I am playing a war-game called full thrust and it is more tactical and the rules work if they are adapted, the developers even say you should. I have heard nothing of that from Games Workshop.
I have awoken, so have my pets.

My blades will be upon you soon.

Then you will be bathed in warp-fire.

*Laughs evilly*


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WillQueek
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Got Nerfed
warhammer is IMO sometimes getting abit ruined, for example magic.

(8th ed. comes out) Magic is WAAAY overpowered and now every army needs a mage or will die.
(som discussion at GW HQ) Oh we ruined magic abit, lets make it waaaaay more powerfull to compimise.

I also play dwarves Kings of War, waaaaay more tactical and balanced.
FOR THE GLORY OF THE HORNED RAT OF COURSE!

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Razuli
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Grey Seer
I don't know about mages being required. For competetive play, yea they are pretty much always there becuase competetive play optimizes lists, but I have seen Skaven, Empire, Ogres, WoC, Deamons, DE, Beasts, and even Brets all do well without magic.
As to GW's games being less tactical than other games, I think GW is more going for the game part rather than the tactical part. Kinda like Command and Conquor was/is to starcraft. Starcraft is certainly more balanced and tactical than the C&C games are, but starcraft can suck when you lose a game becuase of a seemingly minor error, such when I lost a match because I lost a 1/4 of a second build time on a barracks and got rushedby somone before I could get adequete defenses out, where as C&C games are a lot more leniant on minor errors, and so people can win with less tactics, though the games can still be played with a high amount of strategy and tactics.

But this isn't the place for that disscussion.


As to the video, I pretty much agree with everything he said. I initially also thought that the price rise was trying to get more money out of Finecast. All in all, I still havn't been pushed to the edge yet with GW, especially since this has been the best edition of Warhammer I've played since I started, which addmittedly hasn't been to long, since 6th Ed was released(havn't tried LotR, and havn't played 40k seriously since late thrid early fourth edition, I tried a few games as DE when their new Codex was released, but I just didn't want to get back into 40k anymore).
skavenmatt,Sep 11 2010
10:05 PM
Playing skaven to minimize randomness is like going to prom with your sister, you can do it if you really want, but in the end everyone will still laugh even if you do get lucky.


Clanlord Trask
18th April 2011 - 03:46 AM
I always take at least one Warpfire Thrower. You can't always rely on your opponent to do massive damage to your troops. Sometimes, you just have to do a job yourself.

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Dez
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I really liked these videos too. I'm torn though, because I don't like paying the hiked up prices...but I really enjoy the hobby. I enjoy GW products. In fact, I'm working on a Skaven army now. The difference is I've acquired the whole thing via trading, and haven't dropped any money on it with the exception of this years Games Day model.

Matt's a smart guy. If anyone heads over to the MWG forums you'll see he's started working on a game, and has opened the whole thing up for feedback.
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koffietje
Warlord
I must be really bored right now, cause i watched the entire 21 minutes and 2 seconds of that film (but still not bored enough to watch part two...).

I agree that warhammer is an expensive game. I play a lot of games (from monopoly to boonanza and even kolonists of cathan and such...) and they are cheaper. But the quality of warhammer is so much better then any other game i ever played . The figures, the gameplay, the marketing, ... . Its superior. So its worth its money.

I understand that sometimes one is tempted to buy cheaper stuff online (even second hand stuff from ebay ...) . But i think that that depends on the shop you go to. I go to a warhammer (gamesworld) shop in Ghent where the salesguy really knows what he is talking about, has followed several workshops to improve his knowledge and style, really takes his time to introduce beginning players and knows how to challenge the more experienced players.
You cant buy THAT on the internet.

to me that s like ordering a cheap beer in one pub and then walking to the pub next door with the cheap beer in hand because its more sociable and cosy.

I also find it pretty selfconfident of an "outsider" to be telling Gamesworld how to do its business. He doesnt have the whole picture and is talking from outside the warhammer shops. He is the one copying gamesworld with his shop, he probably uses the same tactics as Gamesworld does to sell its items.

I dont know that shop , it might be great going there, gaming there, painting there. But there 's no supervision. Gamesworld provides supervision to all the shops to guarantee the high quality of the shops and its salespersons.

Basically... its a game. You choose to either play it or not. Gamesworld does everything it can to uptain the quality and to keep us players playing. There are those from outside gamesworld who benefit from that same quality and marketing strategy (like the guy in the movie). He disquises it as if he has the best intentions with Gamesworld . But what it actually is, is a 21 minute and 2 second commercial for his own shop and similar shops all over the world. In Belgium theres a saying "the best shipmen stand on the docks". He's one of those shipmen yelling at the ships "you should be doing this or this ..." but in no way is he selflessly helping gamesworld. Au contraire...


Just my 50 cents about this topic. And unless someone is pointing a gun at your head saying he ll pull the trigger if you dont play the game... dont start dishing out comments to a game. Caus if you do that... you might consider the fact that you re addicted.
against.................. won ............ lost

Skaven...................1...................0
High Elfs.................1....................1
dark elfs.................0....................0
chaos warriors.......0....................0
demons..................0....................0
dwarves.................2....................1
bretonian................0....................0
empire....................0....................0
lizards.....................0...................0
tomb king................0...................0
vampires.................1...................0
beast men...............1...................0
wood elfs................0....................0
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Skaven Lord Vinshqueek
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Bunny ear says flop

koffietje, while I fully respect the viewpoints you bring into this topic, I very much disagree with you.

With currently over six hundred video blogs (including the two videos from the first post), it indeed will have had a lot to do with more exposure for the shop and site, there's no denying in that. However, his shop will fulfill the same role for the gaming community as a Games Workshop store would, namely to provide gamers with the products of the game they play, as well as granting them a place where they can paint, game and so on. Through that similarity, I can assure you that both will have the same monthly costs, which would be the rent of the store, the paycheck of the employees and ensuring that a constant client-base will remain in order to generate the turnover to pay for the monthly costs. In that regard, I think you do not do them (or any retailer store, for that matter) any justice to call them "outsiders".
Actually, you even mention they've copied Games Workshop with their store, but I kid you not when I say that the stocking guide actually informs a retailer of how products ought to be stocked. So, I'm not even saying such a strange thing, when what you see in the background is not the choice of Mat himself. (Not that they are bad shelving, but more to respond to your comment that they'd be copying Games Workshop by choice)... and if you don't know that shop, then how in the Horned One's name do you know that the shop isn't supervised?

All in all, noone disagrees that the Games Workshop products are of high quality and in many cases, certainly worth the money.

The only problem is that with upcoming companies (Privateer Press, Mantis, Urban Mammoth, Corvus Belli, etc.), Games Workshop no longer has a single monopoly position in the market. Yes, they were the ones that stood at the foundation of the industry and yes, they are still the largest player, but no... the way that they've been treating customers (price raises, having a strange translation of currency exchange rates, the approach to large retailers, as well as the C&D letters sent to so many) will begin to harm them.

I would advice to keep this in mind and view the video again, as I'm not sure whether you've understood the actual message of it...

Greetz
In the Horned One we trust, all others we monitor.

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Skaven track record [W/D/L] @ 17th of August, 2014: BB 34/19/55; MH 9/2/6; WHF 17/8/30
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BradTheMad
Clanrat
I've been saying pretty much the same for about three editions now and so have many others but it seems more and more people are getting tired of GW price hikes. Especially now with the Finecast range as the ever growing prices would somehow be solved by this yet they again hiked it up. I remember when I first started playing I could buy about twenty metal models for the same amount of cash that now gives me ten plastic ones. And let's not forget the plastic kits of twenty models including a movement tray for about the same price.

I'm willing to pay extra for great sculpts but to me personally the prices have just being going up and up and the quality of casting hasn't improved IMO, some of the failca...I mean finecast ones have been absolutely horrible.
I'm a veteran and I hardly notice other veteran gamers around since they all left already. Even the newer players are turning towards other companies. GW used to be the king of wargames but they've got some decent competition these days that offer more balanced systems and miniatures that are just as good.

The only thing keeping me is the fluff and the looks of their models but no matter how beautiful a model is I'm not going to buy it when the price is ridiculously high. And there's the fact that I've been playing this far so long and have invested so much time and money that simply leaving it behind is such a waste. I'm only updating rules-wise but I cannot see myself buying new miniatures at the rate I used to,
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Olorin the Ancient
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I have hundreds of unpainted models, so I've been avoiding buying Finecast (or anything else) until I get more finished. My hope is that by the time I'm ready to buy some, they'll have improved.

I do, however, want to say a word or two in support of MiniWarGaming.com. I don't purchase from them regularly because the shipping from Canada to the US is prohibitive (though I did buy their two modeling DVDs), but I subscribe to their YouTube channel, which regularly provides free valuable content, including some terrific Skaven painting videos by Paul Graham of Watching Paint Dry. They're giving back, not only to their own customers, but to the international wargaming community, and I think that they deserve respect for that. You may not agree with everything they say, or like all of their videos, but it seems a bit unreasonable to deny them the right to have opinions.

MiniWarGaming is a licensed independent GW retailer with a brick-and-mortar shop in Ontario, Canada, along with a website and an active YouTube channel. They're as much a part of the community as anyone else, and they've built their business primarily around selling GW products, with which they are intimately familiar. They want GW to succeed; they want GW to produce good products. Even if you leave out the fact that they're gamers themselves, they make money when GW does well. If they choose to criticize GW's actions in a public forum, and make suggestions as to how GW could have handled the situation better, they're speaking as people with a place in the GW sales chain, and a close knowledge of the situation on the ground. It's certainly worth listening to what they have to say.
- Olorin the Ancient
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avenger649
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My blade shall cause your death
Olorin the Ancient
7th September 2011 - 10:37 AM
They're giving back, not only to their own customers, but to the international wargaming community, and I think that they deserve respect for that.
One of the problems is GW does not do that. They do not give us anything back. Not once has I seen then discount prices or give us anything. When you consider everything they are a brutal company with only profit on their mind.
I have awoken, so have my pets.

My blades will be upon you soon.

Then you will be bathed in warp-fire.

*Laughs evilly*


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Ratty Gnawtail
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Totally not a magpie

avenger649
7th September 2011 - 05:04 PM
One of the problems is GW does not do that. They do not give us anything back. Not once has I seen then discount prices or give us anything. When you consider everything they are a brutal company with only profit on their mind.

Most companies have profit as the dominant thing on their minds, that's just business. Certainly I believe that GW should go back to the way I remember where they were more interested in you having fun than spending money (My first army book was actually given to me for free. :P )

GW have (sort of) had deals and discounts such as the squad and transport special deals they once did (i.e a rhino and a squad of Marines for a cut price) also (quite a while back) they did give the odd free rulebook or miniature with the occassional White Dwarf. I suppose they could have given more or better deals, but they are a business after all.
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