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Steadfast
Topic Started: 4th September 2011 - 06:56 PM (592 Views)
Skrage
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I saw on the rulebook (pg. 60) that a steadfast unit uses its unmodified leadership and can also use the general's inspiring presence. Does it means that Skaven units can't use SIN for steadfast only the general's leadership :huh: ?
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Scurrilous
Warlord
SiN got FAQ'd, any leadership test, modified or not, gains SIN.
Tournemant results to date:
vs Vampire Counts: 1 victory
vs Dwarves: 1 victory
vs Daemons: 1 Draw
vs Brettonians: 1 draw, 1 loss
vs Skaven: 1 victory
vs Lizardmen: 1 victory
vs Dark Elves: 1 loss
vs High Elves: 1 loss
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dutchwarlord
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Plague Cencer Bearer
Also with flankcharges???
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I Saw, I Came I Ate
Kriskrakk, a mad plague furnace riding plague priest
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Scarr, Reincarnated
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11th creator of the Skaven Achievements. Binder of IceAc.
dutchwarlord
4th September 2011 - 07:40 PM
Also with flankcharges???
If they get disrupted, SiN doesn't work anymore.
The Pox on you, AND your kind!

Player of games, watcher of games, gamer of plays.


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Scurrilous
Warlord
Scarr, Reincarnated
4th September 2011 - 08:01 PM
dutchwarlord
4th September 2011 - 07:40 PM
Also with flankcharges???
If they get disrupted, SiN doesn't work anymore.
So everyone says but I personally continue my crusade that this is not the case. On the grounds that the text for disrupted says "does not add combat res points for rank bonus" rather than "does not have rank bonus".
Tournemant results to date:
vs Vampire Counts: 1 victory
vs Dwarves: 1 victory
vs Daemons: 1 Draw
vs Brettonians: 1 draw, 1 loss
vs Skaven: 1 victory
vs Lizardmen: 1 victory
vs Dark Elves: 1 loss
vs High Elves: 1 loss
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TheZombieSquig
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I beg to differ. From the Rulebook FAQ (v1.5, pg 4):

Quote:
 
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.


It specifically lists SIN as something not to be included. The Skaven errata just says that SIN can be used for any Ld tests (i.e. regardless of source), it doesn't challenge the unmodified ruling.

Unless I'm missing something?
Edited by TheZombieSquig, 5th September 2011 - 03:57 AM.
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Razuli
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Grey Seer
They removed "unmodified" form the steadfast definiton on page 2 of the BRB FaQ, it now reads

Quote:
 
If a defeated unit has more ranks than its enemy, it takes a break test without applying the difference in the combat result scores
Edited by Razuli, 5th September 2011 - 04:19 AM.
skavenmatt,Sep 11 2010
10:05 PM
Playing skaven to minimize randomness is like going to prom with your sister, you can do it if you really want, but in the end everyone will still laugh even if you do get lucky.


Clanlord Trask
18th April 2011 - 03:46 AM
I always take at least one Warpfire Thrower. You can't always rely on your opponent to do massive damage to your troops. Sometimes, you just have to do a job yourself.

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Grey Seer Exahm
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Gribbly
Also, Army Book trumps BRB, I assume this applies to FAQs as well, since they're essentially part of your book.
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Rakchew
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Hack 'n Slash!
You can still be steadfast if you get disrupted, you just don't get combat res for ranks. I will reply back with the page source once I find it.
8th edition Skaven Tournament record 3-2, 2-1, 4-1, 2-1
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RedPlague
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Chieftain
Rakchew
5th September 2011 - 03:46 PM
You can still be steadfast if you get disrupted, you just don't get combat res for ranks. I will reply back with the page source once I find it.
"Page 33 – Strength in Numbers
Change the second sentence of the first paragraph to “Units
with the Strength in Numbers special rule add their current
rank bonus to their Leadership value for any Leadership test.”

No rank bonus = no steadfast surely...?

This is from the Skaven FaQ
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Scurrilous
Warlord
You mean SiN? Steadfast is a different rule about having more ranks.

And again, disrupted doesn't stop you having a rank bonus, it just tells you not to use it for combat res.
Tournemant results to date:
vs Vampire Counts: 1 victory
vs Dwarves: 1 victory
vs Daemons: 1 Draw
vs Brettonians: 1 draw, 1 loss
vs Skaven: 1 victory
vs Lizardmen: 1 victory
vs Dark Elves: 1 loss
vs High Elves: 1 loss
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dutchwarlord
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Plague Cencer Bearer
If I do understand you:
If you get charged in the flank you are disrupted and you don't get any rankbonusses for combat resolution.
But you are still steadfast if you have more ranks than the enemy and you are still able to use your ranks for strength in numbers.

is this right???
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I Saw, I Came I Ate
Kriskrakk, a mad plague furnace riding plague priest
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Rakchew
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Hack 'n Slash!
Page 55 of the massive red book: "A unit does not lose its steadfast rule for being disrupted"

Edited by Rakchew, 5th September 2011 - 05:42 PM.
8th edition Skaven Tournament record 3-2, 2-1, 4-1, 2-1
East Coast Glory
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Razuli
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Grey Seer
Muatate: At this point we have two seperate conversations going on, it might be time to split this thread, this was directed at Scurrilous

Reread the rules for SiN on page 33 of the Skaven rule book. It says that you add the units current rank bonus to their leadership, but if for any reason the unit loses the rank bonus, then it will lose its leadership bonus.

Now go to Page 52 of the BRB (If the big/small RBs aren't the same, then its page 52 of the small RB) where it discusses "extra ranks" with the sub section "disruption." First of all, notice how it is never called "Rank Bonus," but "Extra Ranks," the bonus part is only mentioned when determining combat results, and units who are disrupted cannot claim their "bonus" resolution scores from extra ranks" (sounds suspicously like Rank Bonus) to the final combat result. Basically, if you cannot currently claim getting bonus CR from "extra ranks" then you cannot claim to have bonus ranks for the sake of SiN.

Now there are multiple ways you could take this:

A.) Becuase neither the rule book or Skaven AB states what exactly a "rank bonus" is (to again clarify, is it refering to simply having a certain number of ranks, or is it refering to the bonus granted by having extra ranks?), Skaven can then never use SiN becuase rank bonus does not exist under the current wordings of either the rule book or the skaven army book.

B.) It is assumed rank bonus is refering to the bonus to combat res scores as stated in the BrB, and therefore cannot claim SiN while disrupted, or possibly even while not in combat, for that matter, since combat res is only ever calculated in CC.

C.)The view that it is refering to your number of ranks beyond the first rank. Since the part dealing with a limit of +3 for bonus res only deals with combat resolution and not SiN(in this case assuming they are two completely seperate things), then a unit of skaven slaves 8 ranks deep would have LD 10 regardless of where the general is, or any characters in the unit.

D.) A similar view to B. mentioned above but where it is assumed that combat res is always "calculated" but only takes effect while in CC, meaning thateven while not in CC skaven get SiN. (This seems to be the most commonly played version)

E.) Finally your view where it counts as the "extra ranks" but is not the bonus, therefore, regardless of whether or not you have the bonus CR from ranks, you will have "extra ranks" which count towards SiN (correct me if I misunderstood you). TBH this is the least plausible to me of the situations I listed

Rules lawyery? Yes, but by exact RaW this is what we get.
Edited by Razuli, 5th September 2011 - 06:49 PM.
skavenmatt,Sep 11 2010
10:05 PM
Playing skaven to minimize randomness is like going to prom with your sister, you can do it if you really want, but in the end everyone will still laugh even if you do get lucky.


Clanlord Trask
18th April 2011 - 03:46 AM
I always take at least one Warpfire Thrower. You can't always rely on your opponent to do massive damage to your troops. Sometimes, you just have to do a job yourself.

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Scurrilous
Warlord
Ultimately the disruption section, word for word, states:

Quote:
 
A unit does not recieve combat result points for extra ranks as long as it is disrupted.


It doesn't say anything about losing a rank bonus. It therefore has no relation at all with SiN. Anything else is an assumption. Until an FAQ is released to clear up the ambiguity, you cannot expect me to agree to something that the rules do not say.

Even though I still play it this way just to avoid arguments.
Tournemant results to date:
vs Vampire Counts: 1 victory
vs Dwarves: 1 victory
vs Daemons: 1 Draw
vs Brettonians: 1 draw, 1 loss
vs Skaven: 1 victory
vs Lizardmen: 1 victory
vs Dark Elves: 1 loss
vs High Elves: 1 loss
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