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Who gets CR bonus from "friendly fire"?
Topic Started: 12th August 2011 - 10:34 AM (819 Views)
CapAmr05
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You absolutely do not get to count self-caused casualties towards your combat resolution. They go towards your enemy's score. This topic was raised back in 7th edition by someone else (hoping to twist the wording to their favor), additionally it was covered by a 7th FAQ (saying specifically that your opponent gets to count them towards their score; now the FAQ just confirms that ).

Quote:
 
Inflicting wounds on the foe is an important factor when determining combat resolution - perhaps the most important

Quote:
 
Nonetheless, our warriors take heart from the harm inflicted on such powerful foes, even if they are not yet down for the count.


You only count wounds on the Foe towards your score, any accidental kills against yourself count towards your enemy's score.

No one is going to feel the need to flee from combat because skaven killed their own units: "Oh no! run away, they're killing themselves faster than we're killing them!" :rolleyes:

Additionally skaven aren't likely to stick around for a combat when more of them are dying (regardless of the source of that death): "We've got these humans on the ropes, see how many of our own troops we managed to kill before they did?" :wacko:

If that were the case (which it isn't), you'd be better off just attacking yourself instead of the better armored, better weaponskill, better toughness opponents.

--Cap
Edited by CapAmr05, 12th August 2011 - 09:48 PM.
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Slide Shade
Chieftain
Wounds from Censers, PWGs, etc. are still "inflicted" and "caused".

None of the rules that have been quoted specify which side had to initiate the infliction or causation for the wound to count.
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koffietje
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Well, i could agree with the fact that you dont get CR for accidental kills on your own troops. But that still wouldnt mean your opponent would get the CR for them, either.
Besides, its not as if this gives you the opportunity to go attack your own troops, since thats not allowed either. (except when they re slaves, but hey... they dont count)


And still, i would like to see the face on my opponent:
"Whahahaaa!!!! You just killed 6 of your own models !!!!!"
"Yeah... now take a leadershiptest :D "

Lets make it a rule, that only Skaven are allowed to count they own kills as CR! That seems fair enough to me.
All in favour, say Squeek !
against.................. won ............ lost

Skaven...................1...................0
High Elfs.................1....................1
dark elfs.................0....................0
chaos warriors.......0....................0
demons..................0....................0
dwarves.................2....................1
bretonian................0....................0
empire....................0....................0
lizards.....................0...................0
tomb king................0...................0
vampires.................1...................0
beast men...............1...................0
wood elfs................0....................0
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SkavenDan
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No it's as clear as day it's not may fault that GW is not as word pedantic as some of it's gamers.

Gas kills count and there are only two types your kills and then enemy's kills
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Krogholt
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Okay, before this spins out of control with people accusing others (me?) of trying to abuse the rules, then please understand that I do not try to powergame. I always try to play RAI and not RAW when anything weird turns up, and I did not ask this question to find a loop-hole.

I asked, because a new player actually read the rules, as opposed to me who has played since 5th edition and probably just read that section briefly, and assumed that everything was the way it used to be.

The rules in no way indicate that self-inflicted wounds count towards your enemy's combat resolution. I have run through the rulebook faq as well as the Skaven faq now, and I can't find any official statements on this issue.

@Cap, you mention that this issue was raised already in 7th edition? Did GW actually come with an official answer, or was it through discussions on a forum that a solution was found? (You don't have to dig through all the archives, I am just asking out of curiosity).
Edit: Oops, saw that you already said that it came from a 7th edition FAQ... I'll try to dig that up :)

@Dan: Your argumentation does not really support either cause. Yes, there are two types of kills. Yours, and theirs. And your gas killed 5, (2 of theirs, 3 of yours), so that counts as you killing 5... If you're viewing it in terms of casualties, then please note that the rulebook does not speak of those, but of wounds caused.

As for the fluff-reason supporting the "killing my own troops make me win" stance I ask:

Why should the skaven flee their enemy, if its actually their comrades (comrats :P) that kills them.

And if its PCBs killing themselves, again, it doesn't make sense that they should fear their enemy's combat skills even more because their own weapons are potent enough to kill the one wielding them...

And a HPA accidentially eating 5 slaves as well as a couple of enemies due to a feeding frenzy, why would that make the HPA run from combat? (I could understand the slaves, but that's not the point)
Okay, here is the link to the 7th edition FAQ that solves the question:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2220025_Warhammer_FAQ__PART2_Jan_2009.pdf, page 2:

"Q. If a friendly model inflicts wounds to itself or
other friendly models during a close combat, (e.g.
a Chaos Lord with the Chaos Daemon Sword, a
Skaven Plague Priest with a Plague Censer, etc.) do
the wounds count towards combat resolution? If
yes, which side gets to claim them?
A. They do count, and they count towards the
enemy's total of wounds caused, just like wounds
actually caused by the enemy. "


Since the wording in the 7th edition rulebook is almost identical to the 8th edition rulebook: "Each side scores a number of combat result points equal to the wounds caused in the combat", I think its safe to assume that this FAQ should also cover the situation with 8th edition rules.

Sorry for causing so much commotion :)
Edited by Krogholt, 13th August 2011 - 11:36 AM.
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SkavenDan
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It is strange that they had it in the previous FAQ v7 but now in this one.

Yes it is kills but it is still Foes Vs friendly's not Who killed who.

One of the biggest screw ups the skaven can manage is to fight some one in a challenge with the fell blade and kill yourself in style and give away aload of CR due to overkill bonus in a challenge.

I think a big problem with the FAQs is that people who know the game know how things do and should work (and these are the people who write the FAQS). When a FAQ like this is missed out of the new FAQ causes some serious issue specially for new players.

RAI does not always work as you are finding out for reasons unknown this didn't make it into the 8th Edition FAQ.
Edited by SkavenDan, 13th August 2011 - 01:29 PM.
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scratchydoom
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Seer
Thats really ruff (self inflicted wounds count towards the comba resolution of you opponent) especially considering that when fielding a furnace you have to take a test for the furnace fumes and every model in base contact must also make a test for the priests censer, and that base is HUGE!

From a realistic point of view i think that if you saw your own troops dying from their own weapons they would not be too pleased about it so i could see how that would at do your opponents combat resolution. But from a gamers point of view, i think that the risk of your own weapons killing your own guys AND adding to your opponents combat resolution is really unfair for you (makes censer bearers and a furnace even less appealing for me)...

Personally i would play as the 7th edition faq states
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SkavenDan
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It's only a 16.6% chance of killing your own. compared to hitting a T3 unit and it being 50%. Throw in some wither and it can be a nightmare for your opponent.

Yes the furnace is a bit iffy but in all honesty when I have taken the furnace it's never killed many of my own.
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