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Who gets CR bonus from "friendly fire"?
Topic Started: 12th August 2011 - 10:34 AM (818 Views)
Krogholt
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Chieftain
A question came up in this thread: http://s6.zetaboards.com/The_UnderEmpire/topic/8758927/1/, and I'm honestly in doubt.

If you inflict wounds on your own friendly troops in a hand-to-hand combat, does those wounds help you win (as in add positive CR to your side), or help your enemy (add CR to his side). - Say, for example from a HPA killing a bunch of your own troops because they are base-to-base, or PCB fumes, etc.

I have always interpreted the rules such that any casualty (lost wounds) you had, helped the enemy win. But in the aforementioned topic, Koffietje quoted the rulebook p. 52:

"+1 combat result for each wound inflicted"

which sort of indicate the other interpretation.

Can anyone clarify this?
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SkavenDan
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Doomwheel Fanatic
Wounds caused in the shooting phase do not count in the close combat phase.

The exceptions being the items listed in the skaven FAQ and I only mention them because some of them are worked out like shooting or impact hits.
Edited by SkavenDan, 12th August 2011 - 10:42 AM.
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Grey Seer Exahm
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Gribbly
I think he means attacks that effect your own troops in the Combat phase, like the Billowing Cloud attack from the Plague Furnace.

It came up in a game with me the other week. One of my plague monks died to the Toughness test the Furnace makes you take. I said it didn't count because the wound wasn't inflicted by the opponent, he argued otherwise of course.
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SkavenDan
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The section i am on about covers Billowing Cloud.

In short Billowing Cloud = combat res.
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Krogholt
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Chieftain
Grey Seer Exahm
12th August 2011 - 10:55 AM
I think he means attacks that effect your own troops in the Combat phase
Exactly! Sorry if my title indicated that I referred to shooting, but I lacked a close-combat term indicating that you kill friendly troops :)
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SkavenDan
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Ha ok then,

Gas, impact hits, banner of dripping death they all add to the CR. it's in the Skaven FAQ
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Krogholt
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Chieftain
SkavenDan
12th August 2011 - 12:32 PM
Ha ok then,

Gas, impact hits, banner of dripping death they all add to the CR. it's in the Skaven FAQ
But to whose side?

If my PCB's gas kill three of my own PCBs, does that give me +3 CR to win the combat because I killed 3, or my opponent +3 CR because I lost 3?
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SkavenDan
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Krogholt
12th August 2011 - 01:10 PM
SkavenDan
12th August 2011 - 12:32 PM
Ha ok then,

Gas, impact hits, banner of dripping death they all add to the CR. it's in the Skaven FAQ
But to whose side?

If my PCB's gas kill three of my own PCBs, does that give me +3 CR to win the combat because I killed 3, or my opponent +3 CR because I lost 3?
If PCBs gas a unit kill 2 enemies and 3 of your own. He gets +3 for your dead man and you get +2 for his dead men.
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Krogholt
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Chieftain
SkavenDan
12th August 2011 - 01:49 PM
Krogholt
12th August 2011 - 01:10 PM
SkavenDan
12th August 2011 - 12:32 PM
Ha ok then,

Gas, impact hits, banner of dripping death they all add to the CR. it's in the Skaven FAQ
But to whose side?

If my PCB's gas kill three of my own PCBs, does that give me +3 CR to win the combat because I killed 3, or my opponent +3 CR because I lost 3?
If PCBs gas a unit kill 2 enemies and 3 of your own. He gets +3 for your dead man and you get +2 for his dead men.
I interpreted the rules the same way, until I saw the quote from the BRB that I mentioned in the first post. Does the Skaven armybook have a specific wording that overrules this in the description of e.g. the PCB gas?
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Razuli
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For simplicities sake at our LGS any self-inflicted wounds count towards the opponents CR.

Personally, I don't know where I stand on the issue. While it isn't the enemy dealing the wounds (I believe CR bonus should only come from enemies damage), the RB doesn't specify who deals the wounds. Normally its just the two enemies in CC, but in PCBs case, a self-inflicted wound is still "wound inflicted" in CC against the unit.
Edited by Razuli, 12th August 2011 - 03:45 PM.
skavenmatt,Sep 11 2010
10:05 PM
Playing skaven to minimize randomness is like going to prom with your sister, you can do it if you really want, but in the end everyone will still laugh even if you do get lucky.


Clanlord Trask
18th April 2011 - 03:46 AM
I always take at least one Warpfire Thrower. You can't always rely on your opponent to do massive damage to your troops. Sometimes, you just have to do a job yourself.

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SkavenDan
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Why on earth would it need to be in the skaven book ?

Page 52 Inflicting wounds.

The first paragraph clearly states wounds on the foe

If your going to lissen to some ones quote at least read the section as they often miss bits of they don't want people to read.
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Krogholt
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Chieftain
SkavenDan
12th August 2011 - 03:37 PM
Why on earth would it need to be in the skaven book ?

Page 52 Inflicting wounds.

The first paragraph clearly states wounds on the foe

If your going to lissen to some ones quote at least read the section as they often miss bits of they don't want people to read.
Well, first of all, I didn't have my books at the time I wrote the question. That's why I didn't check the exact wording before asking for others opinion.

Now I have checked my books, and I disagree with your interpretation of the text.

Yes, the BRB mentions "wounds on the foe" in the fluffy part of the rules, but it does in not say anything about wounds inflicted on friendly units.

The BRB states that:

"+1 combat result for each wound inflicted"

"Each side's basic combat result is equal to the wounds caused in the combat"

Nothing in that paragraph supports that self-inflicted wounds should help the enemy win.


To be honest, I actually think the correct interpretation of these rules either are:

1: Wounds inflicted on friendly units count towards your CR.

or, assuming that the "fluffy" part of the rules are actual rules:

2: wounds inflicted on friendly units does not count towards CR.

If the rules should support SkavenDan's example
Quote:
 
If PCBs gas a unit kill 2 enemies and 3 of your own. He gets +3 for your dead man and you get +2 for his dead men.

the text should have been

"Each side's basic combat result is equal to the number of wounds the enemy lost in the combat".

Now, can we get the opinion of other members of the Underempire, or must Dan and I fight over this bit of text-interpretation all by ourselves? :)

PS. The Skaven book does not mention whose CR the inflicted wounds count towards. All it does is say that the "wounds inflicted counts towards CR".
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Silas
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The Great Bunny. Now with a mop. :)

Personally I would always give my opponent the combat Red from self inflicted wounds just because it seems like the right thing to do. However since I have no hard rules to back up my opinion how about we send this question to the new Games Workshop FAQ email?

gamefaqs@games-workshop.co.uk
Gate keeper of the Armoury of Poking Sticks. :duel:

THE BUNNY HAS AWOKEN!!!
THE BUNNY WILL EAT!!!
THE BUNNY SHALL FIGHT!!!
THE BUNNY SHALL WIN!!!
THE BUNNY SHALL INHERIT!!!
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koffietje
Warlord
Silas, 'just because it seems like the right thing to do?"

Do you really play skaven? :P

Here is the entire version of the text on page 52:

Wounds inflicted : + 1 combat result for each wound inflicted.

Inflicting wounds on the foe is an important factor when determining combat resolution - perhaps the most important
Each side's basic combat result is equal to the wounds caused in the compat. Its important to tally up teh number of wounds, rather than the number of casualties - most characters and monsters have more then one wound and it can take several rounds of combat to slay them.
Nonetheless, our warriors take heart from the harm inflicted on such powerful foes, even if they are not yet down for the count. Do Not count wounds that were saved ( in other words, only count unsaved wounds).

Attacks that kill a model outhright (made with a killing blow, say , see page 72) count as having scored all the slain model's remaining wounds.



My arguments for why you should count self inflicted wounds towards your own combat resolution are:
+ 1 combat result for EACH wound inflicted
- Is equal to the wounds caused in the combat.

In the worst case, it says "foes" twice in that rule.
against.................. won ............ lost

Skaven...................1...................0
High Elfs.................1....................1
dark elfs.................0....................0
chaos warriors.......0....................0
demons..................0....................0
dwarves.................2....................1
bretonian................0....................0
empire....................0....................0
lizards.....................0...................0
tomb king................0...................0
vampires.................1...................0
beast men...............1...................0
wood elfs................0....................0
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Scurrilous
Warlord
Yeesh... try arguing that you get CR for killing your own guys in combat without some very specific and explicit rule wording to back you up and your opponant (and anyone else you ask) should just slap you on general principal.
Tournemant results to date:
vs Vampire Counts: 1 victory
vs Dwarves: 1 victory
vs Daemons: 1 Draw
vs Brettonians: 1 draw, 1 loss
vs Skaven: 1 victory
vs Lizardmen: 1 victory
vs Dark Elves: 1 loss
vs High Elves: 1 loss
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