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Small groups viable?
Topic Started: 7th August 2011 - 09:27 AM (298 Views)
King Nothing
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Clanrat
So my friend and I got into a discussion about using small blocks of Skaven to give them a new twist. The problem I'm having is trying to find another army to contrast my Skaven. That and they seem really really popular right now, which makes me happy... but I'm not real thrilled about the idea of seeing all skaven players at our local gaming store (not sure if its like that completely yet, but) So I've been looking at Ogres and he brought up idea of instead of buying another army, changing my playstyle. I usually run the fairly standard, large blocks with a few special choices and at least one unit of whatever I like at the time, weither or not its effective. (I'm partial to fielding stuff that the points would better be spent elsewhere... ^^;;)
Anyways, the idea runs as follows.... Take 3 units of 10 stormvermin, with plague censor bearers, rat ogres and nightrunners. Run them at base unit size (minus the ogres, which are 3 big) and fill up on artillery for everything else. and basically try to surround
enemy units all at once. He figures I can ignore SiN due to being immune to pshcology (frenzy) and that I should stay away from blocks of slaves, clanrats, plague monks etc. Personally, i think its silly. But its how he runs his wood elves and he wont let up much on the idea. I figure it might be worth a shot... but I dunno. It doesnt fit skaven to my way of thinking. Any other ideas? Thanks for the time and sorry for me rambling. Its late here. ^^;;
Edited by King Nothing, 7th August 2011 - 09:30 AM.
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Flem
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A blood curling cough a day, keeps the assassins away

Some Skaven troops do preform wel in MSU, like rat darts / rat ogres /censer bearers. But to your WE friend: " Wood elf MSU is something way diffrent from skaven MSU as Skaven don't have the movable shooting nor speed a wood elf army can summon up. Nor can we play with lore of life and regrowth or heal the losses. So WE ok but small Skaven armies really?! "

Even with the imune to psychology, we don't have ranks nor strenght to break through those steadfast blocks out there. And with skaven being rather squishy we tend to break aswell, so without steadfast we are rather screwed.

I have actually played an army of pestilence with lot's of small plague monk units. Took skrolk as a lord, 2 big plague monk blocks some rat darts and 3-4 units of 14 plague monks and some censer bearers. Worked quite well untill Archeaon and his knights went on a killing spree :P

Flem,
Edited by Flem, 7th August 2011 - 10:27 AM.
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blader4411
The New Lunar Republic!
It doesn't fit Skaven thinking at all, not in 8th Edition.

In 7th Edition, small hard-hitting units that struck first on the charge like censers worked, but they could break the enemy in that one turn. Nowadays, large units will be steadfast, and get to hit back, and all our "elites" are very fragile with a lack of good saves.

The fact that he's suggesting this based on his experience with Wood Elves means you can disregard this idea. :P
I play both armies myself, and I can tell you, there are no two more different armies in the game.

-Blader
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Scurrilous
Warlord
I agree with these guys, it's a terrible plan. We're realy not all immune to psych a lot, only the pcb and rogres in your example are. And all MSU units are vulnerable to shooting. The point of MSU is that shooting one is a waste of time, since it nets you very few points, and it allows you to maximise your combat potential. However, with the way steadfast works in 8th edition, we are simply not capable of winning combat through damage. We have to outlast the enemy through combat.

Also we need the numbers so that when we are killed we do not lose return strikes. I realise that not many armies will be striking before us, but there are some that do. Especially Plague Censor Bearers, which are a terrible unit now. What would this army do running up into High Elves? It would be smoked like cheap tabacco, that's what. Also, without a large bunker type unit, your general and BSB are SUPER vulnerable to shooting, which means every time we lose combat (which will be nearly all the time without ranks to back us up) we'll be running away.

MSU is just not a tactic that works for skaven. Invite your friend to try it out against you. You can take a HE army (proxy it or borrow one) or just take any other army and he will quickly see the differences between the two armies.
Tournemant results to date:
vs Vampire Counts: 1 victory
vs Dwarves: 1 victory
vs Daemons: 1 Draw
vs Brettonians: 1 draw, 1 loss
vs Skaven: 1 victory
vs Lizardmen: 1 victory
vs Dark Elves: 1 loss
vs High Elves: 1 loss
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King Nothing
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Clanrat
Thanks guys. I'll show him this later on. :)
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DNA Maniac
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Stormvermin
My Skaven MSU starts with 40+Clanrats and 40+Slaves with at least X3 minimum. Rest can be MSU, while your big ones holding the enemy you can choose the combats you would like to charge from flanks and crush. Without thoose blocks dont even bother to put your minies on the table, you loose already...
It's Alive!!! It's Alive!!!
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blader4411
The New Lunar Republic!
DNA Maniac
8th August 2011 - 01:32 AM
My Skaven MSU starts with 40+Clanrats and 40+Slaves with at least X3 minimum. Rest can be MSU, while your big ones holding the enemy you can choose the combats you would like to charge from flanks and crush. Without thoose blocks dont even bother to put your minies on the table, you loose already...
That's way too harsh a judgement, you don't need 6 blocks of 40 to win with Skaven, that's simply for the best build. Elite Pestilens armies, Queek-Vermin and such can do with quite a bit less.

A total MSU army for Skaven fails, but that doesn't mean we're stuck with a single build.

-Blader
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DNA Maniac
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Stormvermin
No thats just my MSU. I just mean u still need big blocks even when runing with a msu as skaven. If we were stuck with a single built that would be awfully boring.
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Demonrat Thing
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The Bloated
that's what lizardmen are for. lol
Doom, Doom, Doom,
it seems to endlessly say… all will fall, all will be ruinous,
Doom, Doom, Doom.
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Slide Shade
Chieftain
There was an interesting thread on warseer about doing a version of this, although it was contingent on having a WFT attached to every unit and being able to saturate the enemy with brutalizing templates.
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