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shields questions
Topic Started: 25th July 2011 - 02:40 PM (632 Views)
Firby
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Chieftain
The other day, I played a game against empire. It was probably the most exiting and entertaining game I have played yet, and I won! But we both had so much fun, that we were both the winner, you know what I mean? Highlights of the game:

His fire mage cast fireball with irresisbable force, killing my abomb, but killing himself in the process.

One of his great cannons exploding.

My WLC misfiring and (though no damage to itself), fired off in a BAD direction, destroying my WFT, PWM, and massacring my unit of StormVermin, which included my grey seer. The unit with my grey seer panicked and fled (cause they lost 25% of troops), and NEVER RALLIED. My grey seer fled off the table in fear because of my own WLC!.

One of my rat darts charged into the rear of his horde of swordsmen (60 strong), with his bsb in there. Miraculously the rat dart won the combat (a once in a lifetime sight), and the horde of swordsmen and bsb panicked, and fled off the table!

Like I said, it was the most entertaining game I have ever played. But that is neither here, nor there. My StormVermin had shields in that game, and it raised a few questions , that we disagreed on. I was hoping you guys could help me out.

The rulebook says that parry save can only be used in close combat. Does that mean that shields are useless against ranged fire (except for the armor save bonus)? Did I read this wrong?

If stormvermin take shields (or any model that has a two handed weapon), can they still get the armor save bonus in CC? How about not in CC?

Thanks for any help.
Edited by Firby, 25th July 2011 - 02:41 PM.
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CapAmr05
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Shields can not be used in combat by Stormvermin. The fact that they have halbreds requires that they use them, since halbreds are two handed there's no way they can use any shields you may buy them.

Shields only grant a parry save in combat, you can't parry an arrow nor a cannon ball.

The only use shields would be to Stormvermin is against ranged, so only in the shooting/magic phase (but ofcourse if the negatives on the ranged attack negate the shields they're useless there too).

This is why most people don't waste points on shields for Stormvermin, it's paying a point to only boost your armor against some magics and some missles.

--Cap
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Rudra34
Chieftain
Since SV are using two-handed weapons, the only bonus they get from shields is an extra armor save from missles and magic. They don't get to use them in combat, so no parry, and no extra armor.

Mutate: Beat me to it! :bow:
Edited by Rudra34, 25th July 2011 - 02:55 PM.
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Skritt
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Watchrat
I'm confused, do shields help against ranged attacks? (ei: changing armor save)
:duel:
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CapAmr05
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Quote:
 
I'm confused, do shields help against ranged attacks? (ei: changing armor save)


As stated earlier. Yes; that's the only thing shields will help with on Stormvermin is against magic and shooting.

They're useless on Stormvermin in combat.

--Cap
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SkavenDan
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It makes you wonder why they left it as an option. I doubt they will have the option next time it will either come with or not be available.
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mellr0
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Why U do dis?!
I'm guessing since skaven were the proto 8th ed codex, it hadn't been brought up yet that you could only use any special weapons you were given.
I am looking to get a hold of the following items, as many as possible:
The new style skulls from numerous kits (less heroic scale skulls)
Any bits of skeletons (both older skeletons and new vc skeletons)
Toppers from stormvermin banners (grey seer type skulls)

I have lots of fantasy and 40k bits to trade, including:
Imperial guard special and heavy weapons
Daemonette bits
Bits from land raiders, and chaos space marines
clanrat arm weapons
hellpit arms
Ghoul and zombie bodyparts
older metal Chaos marines

Message me if you can help.
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Skavendrool
Chieftain
Stormvermin have the option of shields because our book was produced during 7th edition. At that time, units with multiple weapons could choose which to use. so Stormvermin with hand weapon, hakberd and shield could use the halberd for hitting power, or hand weapon and shield for survivability.

It is also possible that GW left it as an option because people had attached the shields to their SV models already, and/or because the Stormvermin minis included a shield. If GW had removed the shield option, people would have asked why shields were included with the minis.

Skavendrool
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SkavenDan
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Doomwheel Fanatic
That didn't stop them taking the great weapons of goblins. So I doubt that is the reason they were probably just over looked after all who actually uses stormvermin a lot not many people.
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Hellpit Bob
Clanrat
I'm new to Skaven, and I have a couple of mates playing Orks/Goblins and Tomb Kings. One player has a large unit of Goblin archers, the other has a large unit of Skeleton archers. With this in mind, is it worth putting shields on SV versus these type of threats?

Pensive Bob.
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Batu
Clanrat
Hellpit Bob
27th July 2011 - 05:12 PM
I'm new to Skaven, and I have a couple of mates playing Orks/Goblins and Tomb Kings. One player has a large unit of Goblin archers, the other has a large unit of Skeleton archers. With this in mind, is it worth putting shields on SV versus these type of threats?

Pensive Bob.
It suprises me that people are concerned...let alone out right afraid of bows/short bows.

Don't Goblins have Short Bows? Range 18" (Average Charge Range is 12" for skaven) So they will get realistically 1 or 2 turns of shooting in with a -1 (long range) so a third hitting and only half that wounding? God forbid he moves/stand and shoot (another -1)

short bows/bows are about usless VS Heavy Armor/Sh troops (AS 4). (vs. LA/Sh they are not very effective) Even (volly fire) the back ranks are shooting half their number. so the total number of hits, even a huge unit, will acomplish little for the points they cost. A unit of 60 will probably be at long range so 20 hits. 10 wounds 5 casualties. And that is ONLY if all can shoot. The Unit in ranks of 10 and the number of shots drops significanlty! So 40 shots (6 ranks) 13 hits 7 wounds 3 casualties.

Why would you be concerned with 3 casualties?


Same with tomb kings. only 1/3 will hit and half that wound (they hit on 5+). again the damage from bows is negligible.



Bows are crap: Simply ignore them and close with the unit and destroy it.
Any army is beatable ...Therefore, It is not the Army you must fear...But their General.
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SkavenDan
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Doomwheel Fanatic
Gobbos 100 strong short bows spider banner bsb cast poisoned attacks on the unit from that poison spell of theres auto wounds on 5s it's a pain in the (_I_) best use of a storm banner ever.

But to the point of are shields worth it in general NO just put a unit in front of them at all time till changing and they will have cover and be too hard to target so they will go for the easy target in front most likely.
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Vulcan
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Clanrat
Meatshields are aways useful! Get a unit of 20 slaves to walk just in front of your big block if you're worried about their shooting. Either they ping a few wounds off the slaves before you toss them into the melee (big whoop), or the fire over the slaves and get truly miserable hit numbers against the big block.

I'll grant you this is less useful vs. Tomb Kings with their 'always hit on 5+' rule... <_<
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Ratarsed
Grey Seer
I still buy shields for my Stormvermin, 'cos the models have them.
It's only another 36 points (I have 36 stormvermin models) which in the grand scheme of things is not that bad. Also I do find that they are targeted by shooting and missile weapons quite a lot. Make 2 or 3 extra saves and you get back some of your investment.
As there are shields on the Storm Vermin sprues the option for shields will remain.
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Solegga
Warlord
I like seeing my Storm-vermin equipped with shields, looks so much more realistic. They hold them in their left hand, then when occasion arrives they toss them on their backs and stiffen the grab on their halbs... :)

Also, it sounds unnatural for measly clanrats to bear shields and enjoy cover from arrow fire, when more heavily built SVermin appear shield-less in the battlefield and become more-likely to receive the enemy arrows...

PS.As far as the actual game goes... game wise -> DROP the shields... B)
There will come a day that vermin shall conquer all lesser races....
the only race that triumphs above all others...
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